Antique Mortise & Tenon Joint Question

[Just Wondering]

When he implied that doing work he called "good restoration," but which lost the "original" cachet in the process, doesn't depreciate the value of the piece.

[Swingman]

What was actually implied: As with virginity, once plucked and thereby "losing the value of its "original" cachet", repeating the plucking process correctly will cause no further loss of either.

[CW]

Always thought the word "indefinatly" must have been invented by a politician. It is, in fact, no answer at all.

[Swingman]

Pretty much what I sus/expected ... marketing must office next to legal, or these responses are vetted/canned in advance.

[Lew Hodgett]

Interesting.

I usually wet out the surfaces with epoxy then coat with epoxy putty to obtain max strength.

Guess you don't want me getting close to antique furniture.

Lew

[Andy Dingley]

Exactly! The assumption is that filling the epoxy with microballoons is enouigh to reduce adhesion, compared to applying pure resin. Personally I don't trust this and I use the B-72 as a barrier. Sometimes shellac instead, depending on what I'm working on.

Mind you, I don't follw that bizarre US conservation practice of regarding micro wax as an adhesive.

A while ago I restored a 16th century oak cabinet, the sort with split turnings and panels of appliqued beading all around the drawer edges. It was the usual repair, sections of beading had been lost over the years. My task was to mould new beading to match, colour it to match and then attach it. As authenticity was fairly significant I'd ended up with fixing it, known for being a router- and stain-hating hippie who'd do it with wooden moulders and ammonia. I then attached the new mouldings with hide glue.

US practice for the same common repair on a piece like this (Omigod it's like _older_than_starbucks_! It's older than the Declaration of Independence!!! WTF!!! L33T!!!) seems to be using microcrystalline wax (Renaissance) as an adhesive. Now I know conservators use this for _everything_ including holding their dentures in place, but I really can't see this as an appropriate _repair_ to a piece when hide glue is such an ideal alternative.

[George]

Are you advocating term limits?

[George]

You are correct. "Refinishing" is far beyond "restoration," though the contrary Swingman will start an argument with the image in his mirror.

Restoration is normally a minimally invasive process, and the degree of restoration of a museum piece to be admired behind a rope is less than one which will carry a load.

[Swingman]

Naahhh .. only with a holier-than-thou smartass like yourself, George, who, once again with the above, exhibits a total inability to comprehend or correctly follow the context of a thread.

[David Starr]

On old work, you don't have clean gluing surfaces. The gluing surface is covered with the old glue and it has soaked into the wood. Short of recutting the mortises larger (and cutting down the tenons too) there is no way to get the old glue off of (and out of) the old wood. I read this as "Modern carpenter's glue like Titebond are not suitable for regluing old joints". I have no personal experience with hide glue. I have heard it said that new hide glue with bond to the old hide glue on the wood surfaces, but I don't know this for a fact. Two part epoxy will bond to just about anything, including wood impregnated with old glue. Epoxy bonds well without clamping and is pretty good for gap filling. I don't know of anyway to get an epoxy joint apart again, short of breaking it.

David Starr

[Andy Dingley]

Of course it does. Then once you've lost it, you've lost it. A second or third restoration shouldn't change this any more than the first did.

[Father Haskell]

Your guitar, even today, is put together with hide glue because it has no elasticity and hence won't creep, helping the instrument maintain intonation. Leave it in a hot trunk for several hours, however, and when you open the case, you'll find a pile of very expensive spruce and rosewood veneers.

[fredfighter]

Hmm, Isn't a three-hundred-year-old chair that was last refinished two hundred years ago, and is still in good shape, worth more than a three-hundred-year-old chair that was last refinished last week and is also in good shape?

ISTM that each time it is refinished the 'value timer' is reset.

OTOH if that three-hundred-year-old chair was never refinished and is now totally BTF with none of the original finish left, does refinishing it hurt the value at all?

[Swingman]

_My_ current guitar is a fretless bass, the only thing glued on is the fingerboard and the nut, with hide glue of course, and the "intonation" is maintained more by where I place my fingers ... often good, sometimes not. ;)

... and often quite easily resurrected from that situation *because* of the hide glue.

[George]

Antique value is in the eye of the beholder. Utility depends on whether you can park your butt on the chair without it breaking.

It's worth whatever the fool who wants it as something beside a chair ( or table or dresser...) is willing to pay for it.