24" Planer

[Sonny]

I am considering bidding on this planer:

have just sent Oliver Machinery an inquiry as to whether the 3 phase motors can be replaced with single phase and, if so, what their recommendations would be for replacements. I will only consider bidding on this planer if the motor(s) can be replaced. I would like to think I may be able to acquire this planer for less than $500, considering past histories of bidding on this site.

I am not knowledgeable for doing this replacement work, myself. Can anyone give me some idea of how long it should take for a competent person to replace the motors on this planer?

Though I've inquired of Oliver, does anyone know if the 3 phase motor(s) can be replaced with single phase and the planer still operate appropriately?

In the past, it has been suggested I get/use a converter (or converter system?) for 3 phase machinery. I don't know enough about all that, to know what I am supposed to be getting and how to employ/install it. I'd have to hire someone to do that, for me, and that may be a greater expense than replacing the motor(s)... I simply don't know. If simply replacing the motors can be done, I'd much prefer to have that done, if costs are reasonable. I guess what I'm driving at is: Is it easier/cheaper to replace the motor(s), if this can be done, as opposed to using/installing a converter/converter system?

Sometimes I feel I'm beating this subject in the ground. I'm researching as much as possible, in order to find and get the best deal for the best tool. This planer looks really good, it may be very affordable, it's easily accessible and I really do need a planer.

Sonny

[Robatoy]

Way cheaper to buy an MG set or VFD. Leave the planar alone and create your own 3phase. Thems 9.5 ponies there, lots of power.

[basilisk]

Way cheaper to buy an MG set or VFD. Leave the planar alone and create your own 3phase. Thems 9.5 ponies there, lots of power.

I haven't seen a 1ph in 3ph out vfd for anything bigger than 5 hp, didn't have time to research it, but even if there is one you would be looking at $1500 or so.

cheapest way might be to jump the third leg with capacitors and not expect more than about 6hp of output, it becomes its own rotary converter.

dang, I didn't intend to get in on an electrical thread.

basilisk

[SonomaProducts.com]

A single phase motor is surely available. Very easy to replace likely

3 bolts. There are standard nominclature for motor sizes and types that define the attachment bracket so you just get the number and buy a matching number in single phase. 3 phase is same power, just more economical to operate.

A converter might be cheaper and is an easy concept. You need to make sure it has the same or more hp capacity. Yes, you can build one but if you are not an electrician you can buy one. Ebay has converters and kits. A converter is just an electric motor that someohow has some electronics added to it to make it convert the juice. For me, I just bought one of the right size from craigs list. It is just a small box with a cord to plug it into a 220 outlet and a plug where I plug in my saw, etc.

You can run multiple 3ph mach> I am considering bidding on this planer:

> I have just sent Oliver Machinery an inquiry as to whether the 3 phase

[SonomaProducts.com]

Didn't see it was 9.5 hp. Not aware of single phase is available as noted by other poster.

[Michael Kenefick]

[dpb]

Sonny wrote: ...

I can save you the wait for Oliver... :)

...

Bottom line, 10 hp single phase lists for $1223 and will require almost

40A service (and these really are short of full 10 hp).

If you have any intention at all of this type of gear it's your only logical choice other than getting shop space somewhere that does have

3-phase power available.

It's not rocket science, go to one of the converter manufacturer's web sites and start reading. In general altho it sounds harsh I'd say if you don't know enough mechanics/electrical to be able to install such equipment you're probably better off to stay away from it and simply buy a consumer-intended piece of gear from Griz or one of the other imports.

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[Sonny]

It's not rocket science, go to one of the converter manufacturer's web

Not harsh at all. Considering my lack of knowledge, with the electrical aspect, at least, that is exactly what I wanted to hear....tell it as it is.

I had supposed this planer was too much to tackle. I needed more/ better knowledge than I was finding by Google searching.

Thanks everyone. Sonny

[SonomaProducts.com]

Hey, if you are looking for a large planer they are surely out there and actually not that hot of an item in most auctions so you can get good prices. So keep watching. I like to watch these guys

Like the gov auct guys you were looking at these guys have some fake name to make it sound like they have som affiliation with the government. Kind of sleeze and an insult that they think they are fooling anyone.

Can also look at exfactory.com but not such a bargin basement as auctions.

Also, if you can buy a converter then you can get a lot better deals because most home shop guys are out of competition once you have 3 phase and most big 3 phase shops don't really look for used stuff. At least those still in business.

[dpb]

These guys have a decent amount of information...

Not necessarily recommending them over any of the others; simply that the site is informative and gives idea of sizes needed that can look at your proposed gear and see what you might be talking about.

One thing to note is that a planer will probably be considered a "hard start" load which will bump up the size of the converter and that 10 hp is pretty beefy to begin with for home shop use (not that wouldn't love to have such a beastie here meself...).

Remember you'll need a minimum of 2X the three-phase running phase current as the single-phase current ssupply line...I didn't actually look it up but I'm guessing that would be between 80 A minimum to perhaps as much as 125 A; you'll have to run that circuit to the converter. That's for the extra demand of the starting current that will have to have the breaker sized to handle. And, of course, when the breaker is that big, the wiring associated w/ it has to be as well. The point is, you're not going to just run this puppy off a 20 or even 30A

240V circuit you happen to have in the garage.

Nor are you going to do that even if you could somehow retrofit some single-phase motors into it at lesser horsepower which is probably no mean feat as it's likely the motor is similar to that for commercial cabinet saws; built to fit a specific casting mounting, not a universal mount. (That's why I said I could pretty reliably tell you what Oliver is going to say about fitting a single-phase motor... :) assuming they even bother to respond.)

Anyway, it's all doable but I think when you're done you're not going to have saved a tremendous amount of money over buying a single-phase planer of similar overall capacity, just somewhat less capable in speed and heft, etc. Only if you are in a production shop environment where are going to really put a _lot_ of material through it will it be worth the effort. And, of course, if you're going to be doing that, what are you doing for effective chip collection and disposal for that size of planer? That's going to be a 3+hp unit at a bare minimum...and, btw, you better check but it may not be possible to even run this puppy w/o chip collection 'cuz it may not have sufficient clearance w/o the assistance through the hood just into open air...and I'm sure it's a minimum 5" and probably 6" port.

As an example, we only had a single Powermatic 180 18" plane in the shop and ran 40,000 bd-ft thru that shop annually for a several years making decoupage plaques and the high platform shoes blanks when was doing that lo! so many years ago before we eventually upgraded to something roughly this size...that generated far more traffic in material in/out than any residential zoning would allow.

--

[SonomaProducts.com]

I don't know from circuits but I bought a packaged 3hp phase converter and it has been starting my 2hp powermatic TS and shaper and 3 hp edge sander with never a single pop of my home breaker. I just added a second 220 plug off of the one that came with my house for my clothes dryer and I have even run my equipment at the same time as the dryer lots of times.

[dpb]

Those are 3X and 5X _under_ 10 hp...I'd agree that's quite doable...that's not what Sonny's looking at, though.

--

[John Grossbohlin]

Is this a rotary converter you have? I'm wrestling with a motor replacement/converter issue myself at the moment. I'm looking at either getting a heavy duty (1 3/8" shaft) 5 HP 3 phase up and running on my new-to-me 36" bandsaw or replacing it with a single phase. I wouldn't rule out getting other big commercial iron--when I can steal it and have a use for it--so I'm thinking that a rotary converter makes sense. It's the running off my home electric service that has me concerned...

John

[dpb]

Size, size, size...Sonoma has a 2 and 3 hp gear, Sonny was talking 10.

5 hp, on a bandsaw, not being a hard-start app, shouldn't be too bad.

--

[Lew Hodgett]

------------------------------------------------ A 24" planer will require a single phase motor that does not exist.

About the only way to realistically attack this problem is to use an engine-generator set as a source of 3 phase power.

You need 2 engine HP for every electric motor HP so you are going to need at least a 25HP diesel, engine generator package.

With out an eng-gen set or a utility source of 3 PH power, that planer won't even make a good paper weight.

I'd start by trying to find a deal on an eng-gen set.

Lew

[dpb]

dpb wrote: ...

10 hp is also doable; just requires the beef to do so is what I'm saying that is in the neighborhood of if not in the not insignificant realm...

--

[Martin H. Eastburn]

Why not keep it 3 phase and put in a rotary or static 1 to 3 phase converter ? Then the machine isn't a special or odd or underpowered.

Three phase can also be run off an electronic speed system - generating three phase and the speed control - mostly full blast - but could be lowered for softer woods or narrow planks.

If you need info on the rotary or static - post a question - easy answer.

That would be a monster single phase motor - and you likely don't have the single phase power needed. A 10 HP motor or larger to make up the power loss from three phase to single.

Mart> I am considering bidding on this planer:

[basilisk]

If I had this planer...

It looks like a short coupled direct drive which means the motor armature is pressed on the head shaft.

I would remove the motor, pull the armature, have a 4 groove pulley made for the shaft, mount two 5hp single phase motors each with a two groove pulley and belt both to the head shaft.

use one motor to start the head and pull the other in with a timer after the head is up to speed, that way you only have to provide inrush for one motor. It is important for both motors to be identical brand so they will work well together.

In fact this is done on the top head of almost all industrial planers(both motors direct drive), one of the machines at work has a 75 hp motor on both ends of the top head shaft and some machines have as much as 300 combined hp on just the top head.

With care in purchasing parts this could be done for less than $1300 and planer would have more hp than the factory setup.

basilisk

[Robert Bonomi]

*FIRST* you have to _find_ such motors. NINE-AND-ONE-HALF horsepower single- phase motors are not common. *THEN* it has to have the right 'form factor' for mounting.

*Theoretically* there's no reason why not.

_Practically_ there are a bunch of difficulties.

9.5 HP is around 7 kilowatts (theoretical at 100% efficiency), closer to 10kw at, say 80% efficiency. That's merely 40A. *BEFORE* one considers the 'inrush' at start-up. scale up by a factor of 5 to 10.

*NOW*, for single-phase, you have to have a capacitor for the motor to provide the phase-shift for the starting winding -- so that the motor always runs ins the 'correct' direction.

*DEFINITELY* not 'easier'. PROBABLY _not_ cheaper.

A 'converter' is something that takes single-phase power as input, and produces 3-phase power on the output.

One way to do this is with a 'motor-generator' set. "any old" single phase motor, powered by the 'mains', mechanically coupled to a 3-phase motor (running 'backwards' as a generator) to produce the 3-phase power to drive the equipment. Since you don't have to worry about matching the motor mounts to an existing device, you can use -any- cheap motors that you come across. Can be literally 'cents on the dollar' vs having to find the specific motor that mates to the mountings on a particular piece of equipment.

The next alternative is a 'rotary converter' -- a motor and generator in a single unit.

The third alternative is a 'variable frequency drive'. This is the priciest choice, but has all sorts of advantages -- "soft start", automatically gives 'variable speed' to any device it powers,. etc.

The 'bad news' -- the -biggest- units I found in a quick look that ran off single-phase INPUT power were only rated at around 3hp.

Rotary converters to handle a 10hp motor start at a couple of -thousand- dollares (new), and go up from there. These are -simple- devices to install, *assuming* you have the power distribution to the premises capable of handling it. You'll need a dedicated 50 A (minimum, probably more like 80A) 240v circuit.

If you've got the capacity on the mains, but nothing 'adequate' out of the breaker panel, figure a few hundred for the electrician to wiere everything up.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:23:02 -0700 (PDT), the infamous Sonny scrawled the following:

sweet until you see that it sat OUTSIDE for awhile...in Florida.

3-phase machines can be run on rotary convertors. Got a spare 10hp motor lying around anywhere?

Good luck!