woodworm: ? company using long spray nozzles

[RobertL]

the Victorian house we recently bought, and which is empty while we are doing it up, seems to have a lot of woodworm holes. It's in floor boards and joists. The worst are some ground floor joists. I know that in heated hosues these infestations tend to die out but I cannot tell whether this infestation is active or not. I plan to take professional advice but....

I know (from past experience) that most comanies require you to lift floorboards every metre (and use a 1 metre spray nozzle). I would like to avoid lifting so many boards because of the damage. Most of my boards run right across from side to side so they are hard to lift without either cutting the boards or removing the skirting boards.

Does anyone know a company which will treat an infestation (if required) using longer (say 2m) nozzles, so I can lift fewer boards?

Many thanks,

Robert

[george (dicegeorge)]

i think woodworm like damp wood, they seem to have muched wood near historic leaks in my victorian house, where slates have slipped, or water's seeped in, maybe when the hosue wasnt used in wartime or when a poor little old lady lived here alone and only used one room...

I found the airbricks under the floors were blocked with mud where the garden had grown uypwards...

There are far worse bugs than woodworm, it only eats the soft part of the oak beams...

i look forward to hearing from the experts..

[g]

[Invisible Man]

We have woodworm believed to be common beetle in the joists under our floor. Seems to be restricted to the wet side of the house under kitchen, cloakroom etc. Stuck tissue over some joists early in 2008 and will see if evidence of live movements through tissue when we open up the kitchen floor again soon in company of suitable expert. We have no wish to take up furniture and carpets in the lounge and diner and will probably take a chance on this area. Like you the less invasive the better. Unfortunate that the little bu**ers cannot be killed in the wood and as far as I am aware the only treatment is to coat every part of the wood involved.

[george (dicegeorge)]

someone told me woodworm love Pear wood, and gave me several slices which i've nailed around the attic,

The theory is that the woodworm when they hatch will sniff it out and fly to it and lay their eggs there, then a few years later I will burn it.

He called it sacrificial wood.

I cant see any harm.

but is it true?

[g]

[Dave Liquorice]

Might be the beetles are a little fussy about the timber they like to lay on, different species prefering different woods. But wood worm is not normally a problem in modern heated house, the timber is just too dry unless there is a source of moisture from somewhere.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Don't know, but I recall discovering that they really liked my grandmother's wicker chair, when we were clearing out the house. They didn't seem to have touched anything else.

[geraldthehamster]

Almost all infestation professionals, and their websites, will tell you that you need treatment. In fact it is unusual for woodworm to survive in the presence of central heating and proper ventilation. Moreover, it would be unusual if a Victorian house had not had woodworm during the first decade of its life, before the timbers dried out properly. The balance of probability is that your woodworm is not active, but I'd follow the advice of others in this thread on testing to see if any new holes appear - certainly before introducing noxious chemicals into your house.

Regards Richard

[geraldthehamster]

Oh, and here's another story about professionals. I bought a small Victorian terraced house, in York, in 1992. The sort of two-up, two down with a staircase across the middle, and the front door opening straight into the front room. My surveyor reported slight movement in the floor, inside the front door. I called in a reputable damp- treatment company, who diagnosed wet rot in the joists, and quoted for replacing some of them, and floorboards, and also recommended lifting the quarry-tiled floor in the back room, and replacing it with concrete and a DPM. At just under 2 grand if I remember rightly.

I declined, left it alone and forgot about it, right until I put the house on the market 7 years later. As the floor still moved slightly, I lifted some floorboards. The movement was due to a slipped wedge between the front joist and the dwarf wall that was meant to support it. No sign of damp in either floor. I knocked the wedge back in and the floor was solid as a solid thing.

Regards Richard

[george (dicegeorge)]

so if any woodwork hatch under your dry warm floor they will fly out of the air bricks and find some wet wood in the garden, or next door,

and any woodworm beetles from the garden or nextdoor may come in through the air bricks, sniff about, then go out again without laying their eggs...

innit?

[g]

[RobertL]

To answer my own question slightly: and (I assume) floorboards.

Because of the tighter regs these days they will not treat the timbers unless the infestation is live. I wanted to have it treated now while the house is empty and some of the floor is up but Protem said they were not allowed to do 'preemptive' treatments any more but would have to do a suvey first (at a price). .

Robert

[mail]

Dear Robert As Gerald so rightly observes the chances of your Victorian house having active woodworm is remote. From the evidence I have subjectively and slightly objectively (ie survey data of about 200 houses surveyed) assessed, I put the chances at between 1% and 5% at the most. So what do you do? Firstly may I say that at this level of risk the cost of treatment - say =A31,000 by the time you have done all the work - is a poor investment and is best off in unit trusts or elsewhere. I suggest you monitor the attack as follows: get some glue that does not contain a biocide (flour and water?) and put on tissue paper to all the affected parts you can get at PREFERABLY under the floor boards and joist if some traps are available. Wait till Semtember

2011 (though not harm looking every September thereafter) and absent any NEW flight holes through the paper you know the attack is dead. Absent any ni Sept 2009 increases your chances of it being dead 100 fold but to be sure you have to wait 3 years! All you then have is a structural problem to be assessed - such as damaged sapwood on floorboard edges prone to high heels going through! To answer your question - ie if YOU want to treat you would best be advised to get a firm that does not understand fully the COSSH regulation which require them not to treat unless it is active or there is a risk of activity and which has access to a fogging machine which will be used without lifting any floorboards. This normally uses a boron-based active ingredient and access is obtained via the air bricks. It is expensiver and in my opinion would be a complete waste of money but you are the client so you decide. The idea of long lances is not practical unless your oversite is very deep. Best to lift two or three boards side by side to improve ange and access but most firms do not have such flexibility.

Chris

[RobertL]

Thanks for this advice. However, ideally I'd like to know now whether the infestation is live and treat it if it is. The house is empty, boards are lifted all over the place. By september (when 'holes in paper test' would be done) we will have moved in so it would be much more disruptive to do what now is a simple job.

I've booked Rentokil to survey the house and advise on the infestation and treaatment. They have a fogging system.

Robert

[Invisible Man]

Robert I would be very interested to hear what Rentokil have to say. My tissue paper has been on nearly a year and I have not checked it yet. Problem is that eggs or whatever lie in the wood for up to 3 years and emerge between May and October. As I understand it this makes it very difficult to tell whether an infestation is still active. We need to gut the kitchen and replace it from floor to ceiling inclusive asap so the sooner we can exclude the possibility or further damage or get it dealt with the better.

[Invisible Man]

Rentokil are coming out tomorrow. Anyone know any good companies that operate in mid-Essex that I could get a competitive opinion on my woodworm from?

[Stuart Noble]

AFAIK woodworm need damp wood, which is why live infestations are unusual these days

[Invisible Man]

Rentokil been out today. Reckon the fresh stuff in some holes means the little bu**ers are still boring heir way out. Kitchen will need at least one part of a joist replaced. Probably getting the underfloor area fogged from a limited number of removed boards. Assuming not too many obstructions they reckon they can fog up to 8 metres. We want to get the kitchen replaced now complete with its undulating floor and dodgy ceiling. We intend to be here for a good many years so would rather be safe-ish than have to rip the house apart when we are older.

[mail]

Dear Robert

That is not a correct deduction. The only safe criteria of activity are flight holes that are new, movement of larvae on subseqent X rays with time (lab research methodology) and frass pushed UP against gravity on a top surface of a timber. Such an assertion either shows ignorance or a desire to stimulate you into a contract. I have seen this approach for well over 30 years and find it rather dispriting. If you ask the surveyor the question "How do you know it is 'fresh'?" with the emphasis either on you or know it would be interesting to hear the answer! No one can tell it is fresh! It is woodworm "poo" and basically wood with some nutrients extracted and the only obvious ways such a material can look old is by UV light degradation, desiccation or dust on it. None applies to frass inside a hole Not suprising if they break it open and it looks new - none of the above factors!

It would be very interesting to see the COSHH assessment and the reasons HE cites for activity! ("I've been in this business long enough to know it when I see it"... would be my best guess! Great science that !)

Let me comment on some other beliefs expressed above (with no intention of demeaning - just education) Wet wood is more prone to WW than dry wood but dry wood is not imune - (it IS called common furniture beetle after all and most furniture is pretty dry) Wood with Nitrogen is favoured (pee on the floor in front of a WC is a favoured food source / location!) May to September was considered normal but it may be later with global w.... It is the sapwood that is mainly attacked. That is often on the edges of boards The Invisible Man could easily use Vapona-type strips or insectide smokes at approptiate intervals to control without coating the wood - OK it would take a long time and Vapona is no longer sold but there will be an equivalent Failing that he could use pheremone traps! All a lot of effort but it can be treated (we prefer the term controlled) without coating The idea of sacrificial wood is nice but not really a proper control mechanisim for an existing attack - a bright window or air brick would be far more effective for a photophilic insect It is true they love wicker (no heartwood!) Gerald is spot on with his story INvisible man needs really wait only one flight season to be pretty sure - 3 years is the upper limit in theory To find a well infested house timber not produce a flight hole on a large monitoring area one year and do it the next or the year after would not be at all likely and if exceptionally it occurred would only be one or two holes locally not the whole area Best wishes Chris

[george (dicegeorge)]

what is fogging, is it some kind of smoke they squirt under?

does it kill the woodworm iside the wood? How deep inside do they get?

or does fogging lay poison on the oustside for when they try and get out?

befroe i plasterboard over wood with woodworm holes is it worth painting it with 5star or something like that with a brush?

[g]

[Invisible Man]

Fogging is some sort of chemical where the very small droplets are supposed to settle on all surfaces to kill the little bu**ers when they chew their way out (or in).

If you are making inaccessible wood that may have a live infestation I guess it would make sense to treat it first.

[geraldthehamster]

Did you expect them to say "it doesn't need doing, and we don't want your money"?

Regards Richard