It is. There are only so many midwives. You don't train them overnight.
Your ridiculous notion of just going private and then all will be solved is
very silly. All it will mean is that rich people benefit over the poor.
The midwives will be tempted over to the private sector at the expensive of
the real sector.
That is a thoroughly obnoxious suggestion as it is tantamount to
supporting theft. The third world, mainly, will have sacrificed a good
deal in order to train nurses presumably for their own needs, and
Britain, that once great colonial paragon, then poaches them! This is
fair? No, it bloody well is not! Anyone who suggests this course of
action needs a lesson in removing the beam from his own eye first.
Them, and low wages. But also a lack of any will to achieve in the way
we in Britain stumble from one year to the next, from one decade to
the next. We have been stumbling along, almost since the end of World
War II. I think we are a nation which does not like thinking. We are
too content to wallow in an inferior quality of life and make it seem
better by buying lots of booze and drugs. We probably don't want to
become midwives, because, well, babies are messy little things, aren't
they? All covered in blood and gore when they pop out! Who wants to do
something useful when it's far easier to work in a call centre or
stack tins of beans in Tesco's? It's our attitude to life that is the
problem. We are without ambition. And all the while we have the
"insurance policy" of the third world to call upon to do the jobs
don't want to do, we'll be okay, won't we, won't we...?
So it's fair and reasonable for the workers of Britain to want to improve
their lot, by striking or whatever, and but unfair for a foreigner to do the
same by moving to somewhere they can get better pay and conditions?
I suggest you take a long hard look at the rest of your series of ridiculous
posts too, hypocrite.
Apples and oranges. While our low-paid workers go on strike, if need
be, to obtain a higher wage, we are exploiting the third world to keep
wages down. By keeping wage slow, we lose staff in key positions, who
do not find working for a pittance very attractive. Thus the third
world loses thrice. They lose their staff, their workers are paid low
wages when they arrive in Britain, and the money that it cost to train
those workers in their home country is wasted. That country's tax
payers are thus out of pocket because we in Britain have (a) not paid
high enough wages to attract more of the indigenous population into,
say, nursing or midwifery, and (b) take advantage of third world
workers who, you're right, are only too keen to want to improve their
position. It's not the indivudual workers either at home or abroad you
need to apportion blame to, it's the Government, or rather, successive
Couldn't agree more.
And the State is largely to blame. After all, why bother to improve
one's lot when the Chancellor will take it all away from you, and
if all goes pear-shaped, the State will look after you?
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
Quite a bit of training happens in the first and new worlds anyway,
and why should people be prevented from going to work in a different
Strange and inapplicable analogy.
In a fundamentally broken public system.
You might, but I certainly don't. It's a question of one's
attitude. As soon as collectivist descriptions and notions are
spplied to this type of issue the outcome will be poor, simply because
people then believe that it is the responsibility of the group or
somebody other than them to improve their lot. It isn't.
This is a very defeatist view of life and one which doesn't have to
be. Fundamentally, people are happier with less involvement from the
state in their affairs, yet the state seeks to increase its influence.
Some people are, and as long as the state bails them out will continue
That isn't really the point, it is one of attitude and economics.
Do you believe, then, that it is morally justified to take advantage
of tax payers in the third world and poach their workers to fulfil our
needs when we have been unable or unwilling (through greed, lack of
planning, lack of investment for the future, and other causes) to
entice enough of our own workforce into such jobs? How come Chinese
migrants can come here all the way from China, earn 11 pence an hour,
get drowned, the local MP warned the Government beforehand, yet all in
authority turn a blind eye and try to pass the buck on to gang
I am not blaming the people, but this Government. And the previous
Tory Government. And probably the Labour one before Thatcher came to
power. These problems go back decades.
Sorry, what I meant was we should fix our own problems instead of
relying on cheap labour from countries that can ill afford to let
their workers leave en masse. It's one thing for individual workers of
their own volition and in their own time and according to personal
circumstances to make a decision to live and work in a foreign
country. It is quite another for the Government out of desperation to
actively recruit workers abroad in their thousands and persuade them
to come to Britain. This is a panic measure, not joined-up Government.
There was a documentary some while ago about two Australian teachers,
a man and a woman, who had been thus persuaded to work in Britain, but
they both left after a short time because they found that British
schoolchildren so lacked discipline it was impossible to teach them.
This is all part of the attitude we have.
Isolated case. I'm talking about the whole country here! Look how
desperate we were to have won the rugby. Anything we do achieve is
hyped to the heavens because we know there won't be anything else
along to cheer about any time soon. No wonder the British went crazy
over Diana when she died. The public *need* to focus on something that
binds them as a nation, they *want* Britain to succeed. So why don't
we? Who stole the blueprints?
Well, someone has the responsibility! Or is it just some weird
continental magic which makes other countries work better, their
populations more cohesive, their prisons emptier, their productivity
higher? Maybe it's because we are without any effective leadership and
only nominally have it in the monarchy that we are becoming so
totally directionless and apathetic.
The state influence you refer to is prescriptive. I want the Liberal
Democrats in government because they are less prescriptive and more
presumptive. But I also want to live in a Britain which doesn't have
to continually hand out anti-social behaviour orders, or send
ministers abroad to preempt soccer hooliganism, or spend a fortune
each and every Friday night policing the streets as the drunken youths
and their girls stumble homewards. A decent society, that's all, as is
evident in many other countries - and, indeed, in some isolated parts
of Britain. You probably think I am exaggerating, don't you?
Other countries are far more generous to their citizens and yet there
is a buzz in the air in those countries. Why is that?
Well, we can't spend our way out of the problems, else we'd be paying
so much tax, there'd be no take-home pay left. We need to change our
But that's what the Libdems want to do!! Also they want to join the
worthless Euro and be ruled by Brussels!
What a choice!
I don't disagree with your desire to have a responsible, hard working well
paid population, but the only economy I've seen which rewards effort and
efficiency and controls taxes is the US. No, it's not perfect, but apart
from lacking universal healthcare, it's probably the best there is.
Can't come soon enough for those of us like me who believe in Europe
and want Europe to be a strong bulwark against American hegemony.
You're right. Fantastic! What a choice!
Not perfect? The US economy is dire! Look at the jobs situation! Look
at the enormous deficit that the Bushies have wrought when Clinton
left a surplus behind him! The state of the US economy is likely to
cost Dubya the election, along with all the lies told over Iraq.
That's an extrapolated comparison which has little to do with the
original example. Again it depends on perspective. There are, and
always have been sweat shops or their equivalent. The issue is over
where the line lies.
For example, the hours and conditions for a junior hospital doctor
aren't exactly great either, but the NHS views them as legitimate.
I don't view it as a problem.
It's still ultimately their choice. They are not being press ganged
and herded onto slave ships.
That can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of creating large,
faceless one size fits all schools.
Media hype. You may need it in order to feel good about yourself. I
don't and tend to avoid it.
I feel pretty successful, don't you?
I'm not sure that they do
I think you are describing a personal angst that comes from wanting a
collectivist society and system of government that does things for you
and are not finding it.
Personally I don't want it, so I don't have that angst.
It's very easy to appear nice (not that I think they are) when you
don't have the responsibility of government and can have the luxury of
Yes I do. I've seen the same antisocial behaviour in many other
What - Phoney guilty of theft, surely not.
PS Many nurses have been poached from Africa - and quite a few of them
are HIV positive, so they cannot be allowed near patients ! - and the
human rights act means they cannot be sent home. Now they are a burden
on our NHS, not the country where they came from. Brilliant.
I have a relative who is a midwife fro the NHS, and she is paid fine. Never
appears short of money and take very expensive hols, etc. If the private
sector expanded and required midwives they would temp the existing widwives,
who are not in a free market of pay. You don't get it do you?
The aren't leaving because of the money though !.
PS Like the population as a whole, the nursing profession is well into
its 50's and when they start retiring and collecting their fully
inflation proof pensions (which few private employers can afford) over
the next 5 years, who is going to replace them ?. The nursing profession
shot itself in the foot by going for graduate entry only. Now thousands
of very willing people find they can only work as nursing auxiliaries
with no chance of promotion.
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