Venting a portable air conditioner

There's also the survey required for the grant - probably half a day. I had one done - not much use in my case - bit like an EPC with extra descriptive detail, dozens of photos, but very little on the system in use, design temps, insulation factors etc. It basically sets out where the ASHP and tank are located. Still, surprised there's so much work. A complete solar/battery installation was done in 1.5 days by 2 people, plus the survey and (masses of) paperwork

They did the installation at my sister's large 6 bedroom house in a day - but I don't know how many workers were on site, and they already had a water tank (not sure if it was reused). They're very pleased with it.

Sash windows are really only found in old houses in the UK built in the late Victorian to Edwardian era.

Those sort of units are pretty rare here in the UK, and are usually used for commercial rather than domestic use. They are also much more expensive than single-hose units. I think that originally they were imported from the USA and so were 115V. So to the cost of the unit you'd have to add a 230V to 115V autotransformer, perhaps rated at 1.5kW. Those aren't cheap!

Or you can go the whole hog and convert a single-hose unit to a double hose unit!

Usually most people stay in one room for quite a time; perhaps the lounge for a few hours and then the bedroom. Maybe the kitchen for half and hour. So being portable, you could probably move the unit around to where it's needed. It's not ideal, but it's why a portable unit can be useful.

And your neighbours get the noise! Not ideal if they're close by.

I have submitted a brief query to the local planning officer.

I am with Theo in that "I cannot believe" appears to be a very personal opinion not backed up by any data.

Cheers

Dave R

Thanks, do let us know what they say.

Mine doesn't respond to random queries, you have to make a 'pre-planning advice' appointment and anything more than 15 mins is chargeable (at £200-500).

Theo

My air source heat pump fan blows out very cold air into the garden, so it is ideal for cooling the area where we sit for tea. I only need it on in summer for DHW.

Thanks, that's very interesting. It also indicates that air conditioning units are subject to PP. I wonder what would be needed for the Noise Assessment?

(if you have an existing ASHP you can presumably measure the actual noise, but I wonder what would satisfy them - would it need a third party to do the assessment, or could you just wander around with a noise meter and write down the results?)

Theo

My first guess would be that there are standard noise ratings for the unit, plus guidance about siting, including how close to a boundary, also a door or window of a neighbour.

I suspect most assessments involve some previous experience and a lot of finger in the air.

Cheers

Dave R

A Daikin outdoor unit is usually no louder than 60 decibels, just like an electric toothbrush or a normal conversation. And the indoor units are even quieter. They make a gentle whirring noise, measuring 30 decibels at most. That's quieter than a refrigerator.

This is consistent with my installation.

'More akin'?! Where is the reference in the TCPA relating to air conditioning? Part 14G related to ASHPs.

Well, yes they would as they're not installing ASHPs. So far as they're concerned it's permitted as air conditioning isn't mentioned. However, this bloke got caught, where his AC was ruled by the LA to come under ASHP regulations:

The linked report is interesting, in that it is mainly a rant about interactions with the local planners. I may detect a slightly adversarial tone, which usually doesn't help.

The main thing I haven't seen is any suggestion of liability by the installers. If you pay for a professional installer, they should know the planning rules. If they don't check that planning is in place then shouldn't they be liable for the illegal installation?

If you are having an extension built, I would expect the builder to liaise with Building Control and also the planning department. So I would expect the same to apply to installing an air source heat pump.

This also, perhaps illustrates the WiKi comment "I cannot believe the heat pump is allowed to run one way but not the other".

Yes, apparently it is. Not a lot of people know that!

This probably needs a little publicity.

Cheers

Dave R

Air conditioners *are* ASHPs, they're air to air ASHPs. Some of them only move heat in one direction but most modern ones can move heat both ways. The ones marketed as air conditioners are sometimes not the most efficient for heating, but that's the user's problem not the planners'.

I don't think you could write a definition where an air conditioner is on one side and an air to air ASHP is on the other.

He (and his company AAISP) have a rather arrogant 'we're-always-right' approach. Which, TBF, they often are. But they are sometimes shocked that others have different opinions.

Some useful info about noise levels there.

They don't want to encourage the uptake of air conditioners, so perhaps the ambiguity is one they are in no hurry to clarify...

Theo

Yes, I know. However, ASHP is *taken to mean* a unit that heats water. AC as a unit that cools (and heats) air.

Taken to mean by me, that is - and pretty much all retailers and trade bodies. This is largely because ASHPs heat water for wet heating systems *and* DHW, so a distinction is made. I do of course agree that the naming is confusing . . .

I'm pretty sure air-water is the meaning intended in the TCP(GPD)O. If it isn't, government could easily have added 'air-air and air-water' after ASHP. But they haven't - although (of course) at least one planning officer has decided ASHP means air and water.

Indeed - and I think the planning authroity became uncertain of its ground and allowed the planning application to pass without ever bothering to pursue the noise stipulations.

I don't follow your reasoning. You seem to be suggesting that ASHPs include split AC units? And the regs disallow such units to cool? So:

Where is the ambiguity, in your mind? Why do you say 'air conditioners' - don't you mean ASHPs as you set out above? Why doesn't the government simply add air-air to its mention of ASHPs?

The ambiguity is, if anything, accelerating the use of AC units as methods of cooling and heating.

I remain baffled :-)

I believe that they do indeed include split AC Units. There is no grant for them because they are cheap to install....

And the regs disallow such units to cool? So:

No, the regs you must not use them to cool.... ... the VAT regs certainly include them...

It depends on which regs and where. Given the VAT regulations include them I would argue that planning should include them as well

I think they are great for this. The VAT regs mean that even with a grant they are cheaper to install than anything that uses pipes and radiators. They are more controllable, when the room gets to temperature on heating there is no mass of hot water in the radiator to continue heating and over heat the room....

Why, its not about technology, its politics and red tape...

Dave

It's wrong, there are plenty of A2A ASHPs. The focus on A2W ASHPs is for three reasons. One is that there are grants for A2W where there aren't for A2A, the second is that most people installing an ASHP are replacing a gas or oil boiler so the A2W fits in most easily. The third is that the people doing ASHP installations are plumbers and not HVAC people - most of them don't have an F-gas ticket and aren't trained in refrigerant-based systems.

Which basically means trades do water because they've always done water. Most HVAC refrigerant work is commercial not residential. (plus automotive)

An Air Source Heat Pump is a heat pump that uses air as its source. It doesn't say what happens to the heat after being pumped. (I suppose technically a fridge would qualify, although not much good for home heating or cooling)

If the law doesn't specify, you can't make assumptions. Plenty of people install A2A systems under the regs (if you're in a small flat for example, a water ASHP may not make sense).

It does say

"G.1 Development is not permitted by Class G unless the air source heat pump complies with the MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards."

which probably rules out a lot of air conditioners that haven't been certified. (The MCS DB comes up with 2700 ASHPs but most are meaningless type numbers, so hard to distinguish them by source). It's unclear what 'equivalent standards' might mean.

Correct. Although if it needs to be MCS certified then it's possible the actual list of A2A ASHPs allowed under permitted development is much shorter.

The government doesn't want to say 'here's how to install air conditioning' because it would encourage people to follow that route. Hence clarification may not be top of their list.

Because A2A is already included in the definition, so there's no need ot include it.

However if MCS refuses to certify A2A units (nice little plumbers' club that it is) perhaps that's in essence constructive exclusion?

Theo

I have refrigerant in my ASHP, but a specialist engineer came out and charged the system and put a label on it.

Most UK air to water ASHPs are monoblocs, ie all the refrigerant stays in the outdoor unit and, like a fridge, you should never need to gas it up unless it needs repair. So they can be installed by plumbers without F-gas tickets because all they have to do is water pipework.

There are also split A2W systems where there's an indoor A2W heat exchanger and refrigerant pipework to the outdoor unit. I think you'd only do that if it is awkward to take the water outside so you bring the refrigerant inside instead, although they are likely better at cooling than using water, as the evaporator can be directly on the refrigerant loop.

Theo