My hot water cylinder is dripping, and to be honest, it looks pretty dead - huge amounts of corrosion everywhere.
Sadly its not simple...
I've got a pressurised water system, and the cylinder is labelled Polystel PS125 / 3 - with operating pressure of 3 bar. All the pipework goes into the to of the cylinder through a metal cap that looks like a beer bottle top. Its leaking from under there. The rust is quite evident and obvious.
Photos of tank are at:-
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and
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have no idea if its direct or indirect (don't even know what this means) - and as an avid DIY'er I know I can swap it for a like item. However, I can find nothing at all on the web about this cylinder and all the ones I can find have side entry pipes - which clearly isn't what I'm looking for.
I've called 3 plumbers, and one can't quote for 3 weeks, one can't speak to me till Monday and one isn't interested. Oh what a trade! Any recommendations for plumbers in West Drayton/Uxbridge area appreciated!
ANY HELP AT ALL is appreciated - this forum has been very helpful in the past - so here's hoping!
My hot water cylinder is dripping, and to be honest, it looks pretty dead - huge amounts of corrosion everywhere.
Sadly its not simple...
I've got a pressurised water system, and the cylinder is labelled Polystel PS125 / 3 - with operating pressure of 3 bar. All the pipework goes into the to of the cylinder through a metal cap that looks like a beer bottle top. Its leaking from under there. The rust is quite evident and obvious.
Photos of tank are at:-
formatting link
and
formatting link
have no idea if its direct or indirect (don't even know what this means) - and as an avid DIY'er I know I can swap it for a like item. However, I can find nothing at all on the web about this cylinder and all the ones I can find have side entry pipes - which clearly isn't what I'm looking for.
I've called 3 plumbers, and one can't quote for 3 weeks, one can't speak to me till Monday and one isn't interested. Oh what a trade! Any recommendations for plumbers in West Drayton/Uxbridge area appreciated!
ANY HELP AT ALL is appreciated - this forum has been very helpful in the past - so here's hoping!
My hot water cylinder is dripping, and to be honest, it looks pretty dead - huge amounts of corrosion everywhere.
Sadly its not simple...
I've got a pressurised water system, and the cylinder is labelled Polystel PS125 / 3 - with operating pressure of 3 bar. All the pipework goes into the to of the cylinder through a metal cap that looks like a beer bottle top. Its leaking from under there. The rust is quite evident and obvious.
Photos of tank are at:-
formatting link
and
formatting link
have no idea if its direct or indirect (don't even know what this means) - and as an avid DIY'er I know I can swap it for a like item. However, I can find nothing at all on the web about this cylinder and all the ones I can find have side entry pipes - which clearly isn't what I'm looking for.
I've called 3 plumbers, and one can't quote for 3 weeks, one can't speak to me till Monday and one isn't interested. Oh what a trade! Any recommendations for plumbers in West Drayton/Uxbridge area appreciated!
ANY HELP AT ALL is appreciated - this forum has been very helpful in the past - so here's hoping!
Well, if you had to post three times, you are obviously despreate.
I have no good news for you.
Its obviosuly a mains pressure cylinder, and these are expensive to replace and install and SHOULD be tested by qualified plumber.
First off, this is not going to be a quick fix. Talk to insurance company and see if they will fnd whatever you need to live a decent life whilst your house is effectively wihout hot water.
Secondly get a plumber in who can at least isolate the thing and still leave you with central heating. That is not such a hard job.
Then take three deep breaths and get on the net to find out more about the system you have, and what might replace it. Expect at least 4-6 weeks of no hot water though.
Depends on how competent the OP is, although the banding does a lot of the work in pulling the two bits back together again, and as long as the correct seals are used, then it is a job that can be done by someone who's good with their hands and head (as in a bit of brain power). :-))
Sorry indeed! I only meant to post once - the google posting engine kept failing - it was not meant to be posted 3 times. Hopefully I don't look too stupid! ;)
I'll read your thoughts. Only initial comment is entire top of the tank is corroded and "flakey" as hell - as if its been leaking for years. In fact its how it was when I moved in. So maybe its beyond that.
I've jimmied up a nice gaffer tape and bic-biro contraption that conveniently routes all the water to be collected in a container!
Ahem. Not a great solution - but does mean hot water and heating!
I don't mind replacing the whole thing - 15 years is a good life - but can't find any equivalent models anywhere - and the local plumbers are too busy.
If the cylinder needs replacing - then I guess that is a reasonable idea. However I've read that these [may] need descaling every couple of years or so - and hence the running costs are very expensive?
Semi tempted by this thought - but for 2 things - 1 getting the right seal - I can't find any mention of this particular setup on the web anywhere! and 2 - the top of the cylinder looks so rusted, that if all the rust is removed and cleaned away, it'll be impossible to reseal as the cylinder is so pitted and rusted...
My neighbours had theirs replaced (by their landlord) - So I'll call them and see if they can take a look - whilst on DIY issues I'd say I'm 8/10 er, I'm not at all ofay with this type of setup....
Heats banks have a plate heat exchanger. These stainless steell flexible plates that resist scale. In a hard water areas a phosphor de-scaler should be fitted anyway, no matter what type of system you have.
Then don't do it. This is a cylinder of hot water at 60 degrees, stored under mains pressure - up to about about 4 bar. Really, according to Building Regulations they are supposed to be (legally speaking) installed and maintained by a plumber specifically trained on pressurised cylinders.
Normally, I will tackle anything with respect to plumbing, and I am far from being a fan of government regulation but looking at your photos, I wouldn't entertain the idea of trying to fix this cylinder. Even if you can clean it up, and it looks doubtful to me, then you would have to be very sure that it all goes back together properly. What you don't know is whether the cylinder has in other respects corroded and deteriorated. I would say that this really isn't worth the risk.
If you want to DIY this, then IMM's idea of a heatbank does make sense. It would be quite easy to plumb this in, although a bit of wiring would be needed, and it has the advantage that the contents of the cylinder are not under pressure. The heat is stored in the cylinder in the form of water at low pressure and then this is pumped through an efficient heat exchanger to heat the mains water. With a vented primary system you can connect directly. I notice on yours what looks to be a small pressure vessel for the heating (red) at the corner of the picture. In this case you have a sealed system and you would use an indirect heat bank with its own header tank built in.
Alternatively, you could just get the cylinder replaced with a new pressurised one. However this really is a job that is supposed to be done by a trained professional. If you were a 10/10 person on plumbing then I'd suggest that you make your own value judgment on whether to DIY, but since you say 8/10, then I would think carefully. If you get it wrong then you can create a dangerous situation.
Install a water softener - a proper one - and forget de-scaling.
Without getting onvolved in heatbanks, I had the opportunity to completely design HW and CH for the new house.
The numbers of baths and showers really meant that combi/heatbank looked more expensive than a smaller boiler (hate wasting space) driving a mains pressure system. Plus if I ran out of oil, I could immersion heat the HW.
I insatlled a water softener and mains pressure system. Its fabulous. Only downsiode to teh water softener - apart from filling it with 5 quid of salt a month - is that peak flow rates are reduced a little.
If you have to start ripping stuff out, I'd strongly recommend you fit a new pressurised tank, and an ion exchange water softener. No scaling on your equipment, no nasty scum on your bathwater, use less soap on teh washing...its works as advertised.
My softener is quite large, and so is my tank. About 500 quid each from memory. Its at least a days work to plumb the tank, less for the softener. You SHOULD vave all the pipes there you need, but you MAY need to extend and adapt them.
I shold get planning and researching and hope that your bodges hold up long enough to get the job planned properly for the spring.
Mine was installed by a complete gibbon, and I had to help him read the instructions.
It isn't quite as bad as you make out, because its cold water you fill it with. And that won't go BANG - just piss out of any joints. The standard way to pressure test a steam boiler is to fill it with water and pressurise it...for that reason..
The real danger is, if it ever boils. Thats why its equipped with safety valves and a pipe to vent steam out of. THIS is what needs to be thoroughly tested. A boiler of steam DOES explode, and is lethal.
Even iof you do get a 'qualified' p[lumber to instrall it, I'd suggest reading the nstructions and cheacking up on what he does, and making sure any recommended tests are carried out.
That isn't what I wanted to hear - but my head tells me you are both correct.
IF I could get a plumber to even consider coming around I'd be keen to wash my hands. I can't yet get one to even quote within a month! I'll try again on Monday. Thank god the gaffer tape is holding!
So as far as the pressurised tank goes - I'll leave it to the pros to fix/replace - unless I go for a heat exchanger unit. I'm happier with wiring than plumbing and have just read up on these - and think I could cope with them.
Andy - you are correct about the red central-heating pressure vessel. Though not sure I understand what you mean by "In this case you have a sealed system and you would use an indirect heat bank with its own header tank built in."
Without taking the pi$$ too much - do you have any make/models of tanks you think may suffice that I could research more to see if its in my capabilities? My research suggests its doable if a little complex...
(Note 8/10 for DIY is my rating for other bits I've done - not directed specifically at plumbing where I'd say its a bit lower - so point taken over saftey)
Cheers. See other thread from the poor multiple post....
The heat bank idea is growing on me - esp if I can't find a plumber! Just wish I could chat to someone for 1/2 hour over a beer and a pen & paper so I can fully understand how the heck everything works. i.e. exactly what pipe does what (why aren't they all labelled!?) which would help with a full replacement!
hahahahaha!!!
Time for some Sunday beer contemplation and surfing of plumbing sites.
I've just spent ages looking at what I've got - and I think its all clicked and I understand it. The cylinder has 4 pipes (excluding pressure/temp releif) - boiler in/return; cold feed and hot out.
The boiler in/return is linked via an electric valve to the heating system, so this circut is under about 2 bar pressure controlled with its own pressure vessle/release valve.
So - I reckon I could loop the boiler feeds, and put a stop-c*ck on the cold feed and the hot water out. This would mean I could have cold water and heating and not worry about the cylinder - and okay - no hot water.
In which case, I'd be 100% confident of ripping out the cylinder without doing any damage.
Assuming a replacement of a vented (aka thermal storage) system - from what I've found on the web, I'd just need to connect up the right pipe to the right hole and I'd have hot water again. Is it as LOGICALLY easy as that? (I know how to de/repressurise the boiler/heating loop).
Any comments welcome, and I've got a few more questions below. Don't worry about running before walking, I never jump too quickly! Also - if I'm right about the issolation bit - its okay as we don't need hot water as we can go to the local swimming pool for a swim and shower every day!!! ;) SO I can take my time!
Some questions if I may be so bold
1 - is my understanding logically okay?
2 - any recommended systems / suppliers (UB or SL area)
3 - do systems normally come with all fixings and instruction manuals!!!?
4 - a phosphor de-scaler was noted in this thread. What is this and where does it fit?
5 - whats the thing I have on the boiler feeds on the tank. Red thing with long white wire. Is it a flow switch? If so - whats it for and whats its current purpose?
6 - any recommendations for websites to look at appreciated
You have all been unbelieveably helpful - and are giving me some confidence to undertake this (only replacing with the storage type!!). IF I could get a plumber I'd be happy to pay, watch and learn, but they are just so busy they aren't interested!
Any comments welcome - and if you want to talk to me directly you can via my email address which is on
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- under PERSONAL INFORMATION. (username=jones / password=jones)
Your heating primary circuit is sealed and the red vessel is there to absorb the expansion of the water in that circuit as the boiler heats it. Inside it there is a diaphragm with air or nitrogen behind it. The alternative would have been an open vented system which has a small header tank open to the air typically in the loft.
With a heatbank, the water in the bulk of the tank is not maintained under pressure, it is fed from some kind of header tank open to the air. If your heating system had been open vented, you could have connected the heatbank directly to the primary circuit and have the bulk water inside part of that circuit. The expansion of that water would be taken care of by the header tank. This would be called a direct heatbank since the bulk water in the heatbank cylinder also runs through the boiler.
However, when you have a sealed primary system as you have, the pressure can be anything up to 3 bar and the heatbank cylinder is not designed to take that. To get around this, the heatbank can have an indirect coil (rather like your existing cylinder) and the bulk water inside is heated indirectly - the water in the coil remains part of the primary circuit and is sealed and under pressure from ther red expansion vessel.
You still have to have provision for the heatbank water to expand and this is done with a header tank. You could do this by having a separate header tank in the loft, or some manufacturers (e.g. DPS) offer packaged heatbanks with the header in the top of the package immediately over the heatbank cylinder itself.
With the indirect arrangement, you end up with three lots of water:
- the primary circuit, under pressure as it is today and feeding an indirect coil in the heatbank.
- the heatbank water, open vented and heated via the coil to 75-80 degrees rather than the 60 of the existing cylinder.
- the mains water which is heated as required using the heatbank water via a heat exchanger with a separate pump to the heating pump to circulate it between heatbank and heat exchanger,
If you buy a packaged heatbank it's not that bad. You should be able to hook it up to the existing plumbing quite easily.
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