Two lots of regs - no joined up thinking ...

So, three weeks in now on the burger joint, and all going very well. At the end of last week, the EvH officer turned up to do his inspection. On recording things, over the years that we had the two cafes, we have always checked the fridge and freezer temps every day, and recorded them in a diary, as our original EvH officer told us to. We also had cleaning schedule books, which were filled in and signed by the employees responsible. All seems pretty reasonable to me. However, the guy that came this time (same local authority, same branch office, but a guy we had not had before) tells us that there is no need to record the actual temperatures, just the fact that that they have been checked and found to be ok. The wife politely told him that she did not think that was adequate proof in the event of the shit hitting the fan for any reason, and that she would continue doing it as she had originally been instructed. He then started to have a bit of a cry about the counter frame being wood. Again, the wife jumped up and told him that she knew exactly what he was going to say, and that if he looked a bit closer, he would see that every last square inch of it, had been treated to two coats of a kitchen specced varnish, so he was ok with that.

Then came his big one. When the landlords did the conversion, they fitted the new bog in the corner of the store-room out the back. It is a fully disabled specced toilet, complete with outward opening door, low-level handle, hand safety bars unlidded toilet seat and so on, as I understand is the requirement these days. Certainly, the landlords are a big London property company, and had their own team of builders that came in to do this work, so you would think that it would be right.

Anyways, the EvH guy says that because it is a food establishment, this arrangement is not acceptable because the toilet should have a 'lobby' leading into it, and a lid on the toilet. The wife pointed out that it would not then be a disabled accessible toilet, as was required by workplace legislation. His reply was that he didn't know anything about that (!) She also pointed out that its location was just a store-room, and that the nearest place that there was any food prep going on, was the other side of a fire door a whole room away ... "Ah yes", says he, "but there is a freezer in the store-room". "But it is only used to store goods sealed in the manufacturer's original packaging", says the wife. "Doesn't matter", says he. So the daughter tells him that she will just move the freezer into the main food area and avoid the issue altogether.

Apparently, that would be ok, but he still said that he really wanted another door in front of the main toilet door.

Since then, another friend who (thinks he) is up on all this legislation, says that as long as the toilet is against an outside wall, which it is, and has an automatic extractor fan venting to the outside, then that is a completely acceptable arrangement for food premises, without there being a need for any kind of 'lobby' to access the toilet from.

With the location of the emergency escape door in the rear wall, it would not be easy to add any kind of lobby in any case, so does anyone know a definitive answer to this or know a web location for any write-up on the relevant regs ? Or is it a case of interpretaion by individual LAs or their EvH officers ?

Any insights appreciated

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
Loading thread data ...

I know of *no* food establishments where the toilets do not have such a lobby.

You will fail building regs if a toilet opens onto the kitchen in a house.

The lobby can be used to store things like cleaning equipment.

The store room can be the lobby if you don't keep food stuff there. You may want to fit cupboards for the stuff stored if its open to the public.

Reply to
dennis

I too thought that was the case but that regulation has been removed.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Minchin

I'm sorry to hear of your woes.

If I can offer a comment - don't fight small battles with petty officials, especially if they can make you life uncomfortable. Only fight those you can win.

Him: "You don't need to record the fridge temperature"

You: "No, sir" (thinks: "I'll record what I b****y well like")

Him: "I don't like the wood under the counter"

You: "I'll have it varnished according to the regs" (thinks: "that's an easy job as it's already been done")

Him: "You need a lobby for this loo, and a lid as well"

You: "I'll get on to it right away" (thinks: "see what those helpful chaps at ukdiy say, and check the regs")

Can't help on the latter, I'm afraid...

Apart from the above, I hope the business is going well.

Reply to
Terry Fields

did that not change if there was adequate washing facilities in it? Domestically anyway..

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

I don't think anyone has yet pointed you to the relevant legislation - not that that always helps. But FWIW I think it is the (General Food Hygiene) Regulations 1995 (SI 1763/1995 ). They implemented in the UK food EU Food Hygiene Directive (93/43/EEC) so you can (if you wish) blame Brussels if you don't like the result.

As usual they have been amended and added to a lot over the years. I don't have access to a keeled text. But the original regs. did require that "Lavatories must not lead directly into rooms in which food is handled" (Schedule 1, para 3). That is, as you'll probably know now better than me, repeated in lots of guidance from LAS and others.

The issue then is what is meant by "food is handled". I can't see anything in the regs which defines it so it'd be a matter of ordinary meaning and case law. I can't help with that but do note that some at least of the guidance from LAs states that between the 2 doors there should be a lobby, preferably ventilated, and that food should not be stored in this space.

In short, ISTM the position is nowhere near as clear as your friend suggests; and that you may have a bit of an uphill path to reverse the inspection. Do you belong to any trade body which might help?

Reply to
Robin

Thanks for that, Robin, and the others who responded. It's a bit as I suspected by the looks of it. Lots of Brussels waffle-ese and a degree of 'local' interpretation. Don't get me wrong - the guy wasn't bad-arsed about it. He didn't give us two weeks to 'fix the "problem" or else' or anything like that, and he seemed okay with moving the freezer to get around it, but with the best will in the world, he's gonna be thinking that he would rather have it that way, just in case ...

We had the cafes for a lot of years, and had quite cordial relations with all the various inspectors that called to the both of them in that time, and we are well aware of how to 'go along' with them, and politely 'question' other of their observations. I accept that they have a difficult and necessary job to do, particularly when you see disgusting and dangerous practices such as were highlighted in last weeks episode of "Undercover Boss" on the TV. As I said, it was the first time that we had seen this particular guy, so I don't suppose that he has any knowledge of our previous enterprises, or our track record with his department. Maybe he's new and just being a bit 'new broom'. That said, we have had visits in the past where some small thing has been requested to be changed, and then a different officer has come back to recheck, and questioned why the other guy made us do it ... (!) :-)

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

Thanks Terry. Yes, very well. Probably better than we had predicted - at least so far. As to the other stuff, see my reply to Robin, further down.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

The regulations - Food safety (General Food Hygiene) regulations 1995,

2005 & 2006 - simply say a 'food room', which government guidelines interpret as any place where food is handled, not just those where it is prepared.

There is the potential for contamination to be transferred from the exterior of the packaging to a surface in a food preparation area. This (and how you address the problem) should be identified in your food safety hazard analysis. Storing the packages in an area used by people with possible fecal contamination on their hands must increase that risk, even if only marginally.

Probably the only answer.

The only requirement of the regulations is that it does not open into a food room. If the store contains no food, that requirement is met.

My experience with factory inspectors, over many years, is that they will always come up with something. Unfortunately, over time, the something apparently becoming more and more from book learning, rather than from practical experience. The only answer is to nod, agree, and, unless they issue an enforcement notice, when they leave decide whether anything the inspector said can safely be ignored until next time, when there will probably be a different inspector with different priorities.

Colin Bignell

Reply to
Nightjar

I wonder when that happened, and why?

Reply to
dennis

Just for completeness, in case you talk to anyone about the law, I've been told that the relevant legislation for England is now the Food Hygiene (England) Regulations 2006 and (EC) 852/2004 on the hygiene of foodstuffs where Annex II, Chapter I, paragraph 3 has "Lavatories are not to open directly into rooms in which food is handled." Sorry I was so out of date.

One other thought: might it help to put up a big notice "No food to be stored in this area"? That way if on the next inspection there should happen to be food there then the management can blame the staff ;)

Reply to
Robin

You are correct. And unsurprisingly dennise was wrong.

Reply to
ARWadsworth

As usual.

Reply to
Huge

I'm wondering if the corridor was more to do with preventing airborne contamination?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

You wouldn't want the smells to get into the food either. Those smells include the cleaning stuff which IME does get into some foods if you use it near the food.

Reply to
dennis

My last experience of catering was when I was a student with a holiday job and that was in the hospital kitchens. Back then (only 20 years ago) the toilets were seperated by two doors from the kitchens (actually more doors as they were some distance away) and there was a sink between the two doors and a double handwash policy. Of course 20 years ago the toilet was the unofficial smoking room:-)

Reply to
ARWadsworth

Yes, 'fraid not about the EH regs or the interpretation thereof ..but it does seem that Mrs Arfa is a formidable lady who stands her ground:)....

Reply to
tony sayer

I did wonder about that when I saw the photos. I didn't know you could get kitchen specced varnish.

AIUI (and others have pointed to legislation) in commercial premises the 'lobby' requirement off a food prep/storage area still applies. No idea about the 'lid'; I would have thought that additional handling of the toilet would increase the risk of contamination.

Only thing I can suggest is you can get collapsing plastic doors that fold away to next to nothing, or even a plastic flap door that you can walk through without opening (often used on chill rooms etc); I don't know if that would meet the requirements. If they're on an exit route then flammability of the materials might be another issue.

Owain

PS I think your wife is right about recording actual fridge temps - but don't forget to check the thermometer is accurate occasionally, and record that as well.

PPS a local restaurant here, some years ago, had an outbreak of something nasty the day the EHOs happened to be in for their christmas work lunch!

Reply to
Owain

It never was the case, but was misinterpreted as such by some BCO's. Wording was changed to make it clearer.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

This comes up a lot when dealing with food premises.

WRT the Building Regulations guidance, the Approved Document says, "a place containing a sanitary covenience and/or associated hand washing facilities should be separated by a door from any place used for the preparation of food (including a kitchen)". Separated by a door does not mean a lobby.

However, in the next paragraph it says, "For workplaces, the Workplaces (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 apply to the separation of a place containing a sanitary convenience and/or associated hand washing facilities and a workplace". Whether this has any bearing, I don't know.

I usually say that such work complies with the Building Regulations, but always advise the developers to check with Environmental Health as to whether it meets their Regulations.

Reply to
Hugo Nebula

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.