The reasons why windmills wont work...

[Mark]

There is a load of anecdotal evidence of ill effects of LF noise. Personally I hate going near wind turbines because of the noise I perceive.

M.

[Huge]

I don't usually have the heating on in my (home) office, since the computers give off enough, except in very cold weather - it's 4 degC outside at the moment and I have no heating on, for example, just 2 PCs, a Mac and Sun workstation.

Of course, in the summer, it's a different matter. :o(

[dennis]

It has been investigated as a weapon.. it works but you need huge (60m -

100m) devices to generate enough LF sound to make people ill or to kill them and its not easy to aim.

The new one uses ultrasonics that can be directed and then uses the target to generate the sound. They use them in Iraq and places like that to get rid of people they don't want hanging about.

[Dave Liquorice]

Exactly why there should be some proper research into what is causing these "ill effects". I've experienced many a time aircon/ventilation plant that is producing LF noise that will drive me away from the area very quickly. I can't hear it as such, just sense it. When in such an area I feel "suffocated" or as if there is a "weight bearing down on me". The relief when it stops is joyous.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Except that there are probably more computers and more people packed into the space..

IIRC you can get as low as a person every 50 sq ft in a call center, one in a 100 sq ft is about average.

A working person is about 150W of heat: a computer and lighting will add another 100W or so probably. 100sq ft is about 10 square meters so thats

25W/square meter.

My underfloor heating only needs to be 50W/sq meter to fully heat the house.

And that has lots of windows..many offices are large and have a low proportion of window to floor area, they also come in blocks, so almost no heat loss upwards or downwards..

They generally need forced ventilation, and even in the spring/autumn, air conditioning.

[Peter Parry]

In the late 60's the French investigated using sound at around 6Hz as a riot control system - making people feel uncomfortable so they left the area. Unfortunately for the prospective use it affected everyone in the area equally but not very much.

The longer term effects of exposure to low frequencies is beginning to be better understood. A paper presented at Inter-Noise 2007 in Istanbul titled "Public health and noise exposure: the importance of low frequency noise" by Alves-Pereira and Castelo Branco of the Centre for Human Performance, Alverca, (Lisbon University) refers to infrasound as a stressor leading to hypertension and sleep loss and one case they are studying of a family apparently affected by low frequency noise from four wind turbines between 300 and 700m from their home. They found the level of low frequency sound to significantly exceed the level accepted as causing Vibroacoustic Disease and claim "that wind turbines in the proximity of residential areas produce acoustical environments that can lead to the development of VAD in nearby home-dwellers."

They also say "...widespread statements claiming no harm is caused by in-home ILFN produced by Wind Turbines are fallacies that cannot, in good conscience, continue to be perpetuated. In-home ILFN generated by Wind Turbines can lead to severe health problems, specifically, VAD. Therefore, real and efficient zoning for Wind Turbines must be scientifically determined, and quickly adopted, in order to competently and responsibly protect Public Health."

(In-Home Wind Turbine Noise Is Conducive to Vibroacoustic Disease Author: Alves-Pereira, Mariana; and Castelo Branco, Nuno Abstract of paper presented at the Wind Turbine Noise Conference 2007, Lyon, September 20-21, 2007)

A report published in January "Wind turbines?low level noise sources interfering with restoration [sleep]?" by Eja Pedersen and Kerstin Persson Waye Occupational and Environmental Medicine, Sahlgrenska Academy, Göteborg University claims:-

"...In a society where people are being exposed to an increasing noise load, moderate and low level noise sources may also be perceived as annoying and hence inhibit restoration. This article presents an analysis of two socio-acoustic studies of wind turbine noise with the emphasis on perception, annoyance and consequences for restoration. It is hypothesized that low and moderate stressors such as wind turbine noise could have an impact on health. The risk seems to be higher if restoration is, or is perceived to be, impaired and also for certain groups of individuals. "

There is an increasing appreciation that the amplitude modulation of the sound by the blades makes Wind Turbines far more distressing than an equivalent broadband noise level.

[Mary Fisher]

Agreed. I 'feel' it round about my diaphragm, it's awful. A new branch of Boots (years ago) drove me away after I'd used the escalator - they were no stairs!

I've never felt it close to or far from any kind of windmills though.

Oh - people must have complained to Boots because I was taken in some years later and there was no effect on me.

Mary

[Jules]

I suspect their real agenda is to box-tick and feel smug that they've Done Something; how the 'solution' affects the bigger picture - or whether it actually works at all - is very much a secondary consideration.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of such people capable of applying logic and taking a balanced view, but they do tend to get drowned out in the noise.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 15:14:55 on Tue, 11 Mar 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

The offices I visit are not recognisable from that description.

[Jules]

What you need is a fan in your loft, ducting all that lost warm air back down to ground level... ;)

The ceilings here are 8ft high, so I suppose I'd be nice and warm if only I could float. :-)

The thermostat's set at 18C, but the heating's all ducted air from a central furnace - so forget any concept of setting individual room temperature according to that room's natural heating requirements :-(

Yearly gas bill works out at around £400 I think, but the laundry dryer is also gas-heated.

cheers

Jules

[The Natural Philosopher]

Denser, or more expanded?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Are you still 'in'?

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 16:34:55 on Tue, 11 Mar 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

Much more fragmented. People often in their own rooms, but an average density of 100 sq ft seems OK.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Lucky people..

Cost per employee starts to spiral a bit of you do that..call centers are the pits - real sweat shops.

3-4 people per room is nice - room to think but not isolated - a nice 'workgroup'

[Andy Hall]

It is. You should have seen the cooling systems used for IBM mainframes a few years ago.

The power consumption has become less for given horsepower quite steadily. The real effect has been masked because people have been brainwashed into buying PC format hardware and running Microsoft bloatware on it. Both could easily be scaled down.

[Andy Hall]

On the contrary. Who other than Microsoft and Intel said that there have to be PCs at the rate of one per head?

[Rod]

Absolutely. We can now buy 100+ GB disc drives which run on 500 mW available from a USB socket. It wasn't *that* long ago that 3.5 inch discs of just a few GB capacity used around 10 W each. And now we need tens of GB just to install Windows Vista. (I remember the amazement that Windows 2000 could need almost 1 GB to install.)

Partner's MacBook hardly ever runs a fan and its battery lasts ages. My much less powerful laptop runs a fan a lot of the time and runs its battery into the ground. A machine actually designed to be much more efficient could do even better.

[Rod]

Oooops - 500 mA. 2.5 W.

[Andy Champ]

Oh, it is. The machine I have under my desk is more powerful than the entire contents of the ICL Bracknell machine room at the time I started my career. And that was one of the largest in Europe.

The trouble is we're giving them tasks to do which were just impossible not that many years ago.

That, and as has been pointed out, a whole lot of pointless tasks too.

Hands up who has a pretty picture on their desktop?

Andy.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 18:11:40 on Tue, 11 Mar 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

When you get more than two people a room then conversations become intrusive (two of the occupants want to have a debate, the third wants to work), and voting on music/no-music etc gets tedious.

Of course, the rules change again when you get beyond half a dozen, and start inventing such things as meeting rooms.