Sat signal loss until reboot

In gusty winds, TV signals disappear and can only be restored by powering the receiver off and on again. Or at least that's the only way I've discovered so far to restore normal operation.

The setup is a little unusual: a satellite internet link (which continues to work throughout the gusts, so dish pointing isn't the issue), a DVB-S LNB offset by the appropriate amount so that it 'sees' the Astra 2A-B-D satellites instead of the Europasat internet satellite which the dish is aimed at, a dish motor so that I can look at other TV satellites if I don't mind losing the internet connection, a multiplexer on the roof to combine DAB, FM, terrestrial and satellite signals, and a matching demultiplexer beside the receiver.

It all works perfectly if the wind isn't blowing, but gets into some odd state where the TV signal goes from 90% signal strength and 73% signal quality to near zero strength and zero quality after a variable number of gusts.

The coax downlead for TV is about 20 metres long and has a copper-coated steel inner and a foil and braid outer. I used the best coax only for the internet connection, which might have been a mistake. I wish now that I'd used top quality solid copper coax instead of stuff with a copper coated steel inner, which must be more prone to electrolytic corrosion and may have a higher resistance.

In desperation I may try replacing/remaking all the 'F' type coax connectors, though I'm not sure why a poor connection would give the odd effects in question.

Does a dish motor automatically drive a dish back to the original position if a gust moves it a fraction of a degree away? That, happening repeatedly, might (I suppose) overload the power supply from the receiver, or cause a sudden drop in voltage which could confuse the TV LNB.

The dish, motor, and receiver are all Fortec Star, which work well enough in simpler setups.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

Reply to
Windmill
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It might if the system really knows, via some form of feedback where the dish is but I don't think they do. Just align the dish to satellites each end of the arc it can see and it just motors x amount to find the ones in between. There could be some form of signal strength feeback to "peak the alignment" when about in the right place but that couldn't be used to keep the dish aligned as it doesn't provide information about which way to move the dish.

Next time it happens move the dish to another sat and back again?

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

Yes, the dish movers are just dead reckoning things. If its possible to actually physically move the dish with gusts of wind then the dish needs to m be more securely mounted in my view. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

Just a guess here, but if the dish itself isn't moving maybe the arm holding the offset LNB is? Possibly it's giving corrupt data packets to the receiver which doesn't like it?

Couple of our old Sky digital boxes locked up with a similarly noisy input...

Lee

Reply to
Lee

You cannot assume its not dish movement, it might well be that the aiming is better for the main sat, and a bit off or weaker for the offset one. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

If it is a wind problem you can try moving the affected bit around by hand and if you can repeat the problem then tighten up and realign as required.

Also are there any trees overhanging the dishes even some metres away at all, they can really clobber sat signals and even more so when wet...

Reply to
tony sayer

In article , Windmill writes

Can you turn off the LNB power on the receiver to separate the potential of it being an LNB lockup rather than a steering issue?

If it restores the LNB function it could still be a cabling issue with movement causing transient interruptions to the LNB supply. I don't know how sensitive LNBs are to such transients.

Reply to
fred

Not me!

My bet is that the problem lies with the cabling, you could connect the receiver direct to the LNB to see what happens when the wind blows.

If you have a meter you can check the voltage that the receiver is supplying to the motor/LNB.

The

formatting link
satellite/technical forum can be quite helpful.

Reply to
Michael Chare

That's probably the case; I suspect (but don't know for sure - maybe need to dig for the stuff about DisEqC I copied from a library book a couple of years ago) that the receiver can tell the dish motor to go to position 5, the dish motor can remember positions and the corresponding azimuths when it's told to do so by the receiver (so the receiver can later say 'Goto X' using the appropriate protocol), the dish motor can have all positions reset (this one does it when you press both the 'Go East' and 'Go West' manual buttons on the motor at the same time and then power on (they can't have intended it to be easy!), but probably the motor can't tell the receiver where it's pointed.

However it's still possible that even if the receiver doesn't know, the dish motor might remember where it's pointed and move back there if a gust blows it maybe 0.1 degrees away.

That would depend on the dish motor having some kind of shaft encoder to tell it it's current position.

Otherwise, there would have to be a stepping motor pointing the dish by just counting the number of steps. Which doesn't sound very good, but maybe they do that. (I'm just trying to guess semi-logically what the design might do).

Mmmm - couldn't you do that by moving one way a small amount until the signal falls a little, then the other way until it rises then falls to the same amount as before, and then split the difference? But I doubt if there is such a feature, in this motor/receiver combination at least.

The motor does have east and west limits which you set from the receiver, but that doesn't prove that there is any position feedback to the receiver from the motor.

I've been reluctant to do that in case something goes wrong. Access to the roof here is via a hatch in the upstairs neighbour's flat, so I have to coordinate that with them, and if I can't get the dish pointed correctly again I would lose satellite internet until I can go up. (Also, I'm still not really clear about setting motor positions - the booklet is translated from maybe the Chinese!) Pointing to a TV satellite has to be fairly precise, but pointing to an internet satellite has to be super-precise - a 3 watt transmitted signal has to reach up 22,400 miles to the satellite. Which is bloody well amazing, but it works. Another case where Clarke's dictum is spot on: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. And very appropriate that it applies to satellites in the synchronous orbits he suggested long ago.

Reply to
Windmill

It certainly moves a little, but not enough to lose satellite internet, for which the accuracy has to be high. During/after moderate gusts it seems to vibrate back to its original position (there's a little bit of 'slop' in the motor gearing, I think, and the combination of chimney mounting (steel lashing wires) and mast isn't quite 100% rigid. I don't think you could get absolute rigidity.

Reply to
Windmill

But if the arm is moving, why does powering the receiver off then on again cure the problem for another 10 seconds/10 minutes/20 minutes? That's what I don't understand. Of course you could be right; there may be something unusual in the receiver design which makes it give up after getting some noise. The TV LNB is actually fairly firmly mounted; I can imagine it moving and staying in the wrong position if forced, but moving back to the correct position seems unlikely.

Interesting info, that. Who knows what goes on in the innards.

Reply to
Windmill

Yeah but .... turning the receiver off then on again restores the normal signal. Strength 90%, signal quality 73%. (If the receiver is telling the truth.)

Reply to
Windmill

Difficult; I'd need to run a mains cable up to the roof then take a TV up there to see what happened. I hope it doesn't come to that.

As I've found, in a different place where a tenant has a dish on the wall outside his flat. Fine in winter, variable in summer. I'm thinking of putting a dish on the roof there, "God willlin', an' if the crick don't rise", as the country-corny American saying has it.

But here the line to the Astra satellites is completely unobstructed (the Eutelsat satellite is, luckily, sufficiently high to be 'visible' above the neighbour's chimney pots).

Reply to
Windmill

That's an excellent idea. It can be done just by using the remote. And I'm keen to do as much investigation from ground level as possible, given the difficulty of getting onto the roof.

I don't even know what's in an LNB. There must be something like a tuned cavity and a gallium arsenide transistor or IC to generate the local oscillator frequency (the specs usually seem to talk about a stability of +/- 2 MHz, which I suppose isn't much as a percentage of

10 GHz). And there's some sort of polarisation switch, apparently selectable by changing the DC supply voltage from the receiver down below, and some sort of 22KHz modulated tone, also from the receiver, though I've forgotten what that does in an LNB (frequency selection? LNB selection when there are multiple LNBs ?).
Reply to
Windmill

If this was something I did regularly I suppose I'd need to buy a battery-powered satellite receiver. Otherwise it's difficult to get mains and a receiver up to the roof (I have only an ex-wife so can't get her to call up to me!), so I'm trying to avoid that approach if possible.

I've been thinking about that. To properly measure voltage, current, etc., I'd need a low pass filter to separate the DC from the UHF or SHF (I suppose it might be called). Maybe a tiny one-turn coil and a 10,000 pF. capacitor, or two of them to measure current (with another 1000pF cap to bypass the TV signals).

Thank you for that link. I'll give it a try.

Reply to
Windmill

Worth a try but there ain't much to "lock up" in an LNB, not unless they are using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

Yep LO of some sort.

Yep, magnetic some how in the feed horn/wave guide.

Think it's justa 22 kHz tone on or off. Selects which block of frequencies to send down as the IF signal. Lo-Band or Hi-Band.

Got me there, I've always assumed that LNB switching was done manually or possibly part of the DiscEq protocol.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

which way

How do you know that the signal fall, or rise, is due to the movement and not some other external factor, heavy rain, dish icing, sun outage, bird perched on LNB...

3 W ERP or 3 W of RF into a 20 dB gain dish? (350+ W ERP...)
Reply to
Dave Liquorice

The next time you have a problem, before you power off, try switching to a channel of the opposite polarity. The change in DC voltage might just help.

Some satellite receivers don't really supply enough current. This can be a problem if you have multiple items connected, such as switches, motors or even cheap meters.

Reply to
Michael Chare

Just a thought. You say that this plays up until you reboot the system and then it seems to be OK.

Just wondering if something in the sat RX is making it drift then when re booted it corrects that alignment problem.

Might be an idea to watch it carefully under "fault" conditions whilst getting SWMBO to re boot it and looking for and movement from it?...

Reply to
tony sayer

Ah!, sorry I thought there was another with you;!...

Funny that a mate of mine has just that outlook he treats them as expendable and mean just isn't the word for it either! .

And guess what as soon as ones gone there another turns up there!

.. round him like files;!...

Not got a mate who could look at this whilst being re booted at all?..

Reply to
tony sayer

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