Re: OT: Oooh. Look Mum. No wind.

[Nick Cat]

Coal/gas/nuke need wiring from them. Renewables need wiring from them as well as wiring from coal/gas/nuke.

NT

[The Natural Philosopher]

You are right. I thought there were in fact 5..

[Jethro_uk]

Seems a good starting point.

Technology is like the 3-way pyramid that describes fire. It's science, engineering, and material science. you need all three to advance.

There's a lot of areas where the science is good, but we lack either the materials or the engineering to deliver the goods.

Whatever happened to graphene ? Or buckyballs ?

[Chris Green]

Renewables need *lots* of small wires as they are relatively low power and numerous.

[Pancho]

You have to get the gas from somewhere.

[snip]

Why? [snip]

We were discussing a means of producing a reliable system using wind and energy storage via hydrogen. It might be difficult or expensive, but you can't just make silly comments and dismiss it.

[Dave Liquorice]

The pumped sub-class of hydro. B-)

Wonkypedia lists Foyers (300 MW), Sloy (160 MW) and Cruachan Dam (400 MW) in Scotland with Dinorwig (1728 MW) and Ffestiniog (360 MW) in Wales as pumped storeage. No runtimes given at maxium ouput starting with full upper reserviors...

[The Natural Philosopher]

"Betavoltaic power sources (and the related technology of alphavoltaic power sources[2]) are particularly well-suited to *low-power* electrical applications "

Nope. That aint gonna cut the mustard for power stations, or even cars. The problem is that reasonably safe nuclear fission reactions as such generate low grade heat. By the time there is a decent radiation output one might tap directly, they are FUCKING dangerous!

What is needed is a something like solid state reactions - fission or fusion - that release electrons, not photons. Fission tends to produce neutrons, and alphas, as well as gamma (photons). Beta radiation is somewhat scarcer

Of course you could have a tritium light and a photocell, ...for the ultimate in crap efficiency..

Vanished without trace. I think actually graphene is in some super capacitors.

like its achieved a fairly wide use in some niche applications.

Buckyballs? used in solar panels and that's about it.

A solution in search of a problem...

[Dave Plowman (News]

Must be nice to have a crystal ball. Did you use the same one when voting Brexit?

[The Natural Philosopher]

On the other hand you cant make silly comments like 'technically feasible' and implement it.

Technical feasibility is only one aspect of an engineering solution. In terms of energy production, you need to make sure you get out more energy than you put in!

Windmills are already suspect - depending on who is doing the calculations the lifetime levelised EROIOEI (energy return over energy input) varies from abut 0.8 to only about three.

What that 0.8 means is that we consume more fossil fuel to make windmills than they ever pay back. They actually *increase* CO2 emissions.

And 3 is pathetic, One windmill in three doing nothing but create the energy to build another windmill...

It not really 'sustainable' either.

This is why *technical feasibility* is not really the point at all. Nor even is *cost*.

If, in order to use windmills and solar panels reliably, we have to expend more energy building supergrids, batteries, hydrogen generating plant, hydrogen storage plant, auxiliary power stations, and diesel generators than the renewable energy energy gives back, renewable energy is simply *not* *sustainable*.

That turns 'renewable energy' from a planet saving technological advance, to a civilisation destroying dangerous fantasy.

Which as a qualified engineer, I consider it to be, without question.

Renewable energy is far, far more dangerous than climate change.

[The Natural Philosopher]

ah. I forgot Sloy. 5 in TOTAL then. I thought it was five in Scotland. Senility and all that... Dinorwig is a couple of hours run flat out, but it was designed as pumped, IIRC the Scottish ones are hydro plants with some reverse pumping added later...

Odd. They (wiki) mention Sloy as a conventional hydro plant only, not pumped, but definitely only used to meet peak demand.

Cruachan, is to my surprise, pure pumped storage, like Dinorwig and Ffestiniog.

Foyers was conventional hydro then retro fitted to pump as well. I think the issue that was in my mind is that many Scottish hydro plants are suitable for conversion to pumped, as they have lochs at the bottom

Certainly a bit more pumped storage would be handy for peak following when we go 100% nuclear ;-)

[Tim Streater]

The cabling in both cases is sized to match the maximum output the unit can produce.

But for coal/gas/nuke, that cabling matches the max output of the unit *most*

*of* *the* *time*. Not the case for wind, where the output is rarely anywhere near actual max output, never mind the *theoretical* max output. Wind producing 490MW, as I type. And it could continue like that for several days.

[Andrew]

Rampion

Can't wait for the next 'MV Ice Prince' incident to occur.

Barsteward police stopped people collecting for the best DIY shed EVER

[Andrew]

One of the Thames road tunnels has to be closed once a month so that 'bitumen' that oozes into it from a nearby long-defunct town gas plant can be manually scraped up with plastering trowels.

[Pancho]

Erm??? presume you mean ERORI. Wiki says 20 to 50.

Or maybe not. Maybe the levelised bit includes the additional infrastructure + dispatchable generation required to handle wind variability. Which might be low at the moment but I would imagine large improvements are achievable as the technology matures. You really need to give a cite. I would also suspect it is sensitive to assumptions.

[snip]

I'm with you up until the conclusion, that it is not sustainable (also why diesel generators?). Basically, I think you are over reaching without proving your conclusion.

I reckon nuclear bombs and AI are more dangerous than climate change, but I can't see how you get there for renewable energy. Worst comes to worst we can burn coal.

[The Natural Philosopher]

EROEI

Wiki is written by green activists - I dont trust it on anything to do with renewable energy or climate change.

Stop imagining and start calculating.

Why, are you someone who instantly believes what 'experts' say? That runs on 'appeal to authority'

Of course it is.

The beauty of a free market is that 'money talks and bullshit walks'

The problem with subsidy is that it disguies terrible products

Belkeve what you like. I wont be around to see it proved. You may be.

The problem with renewable energy is that it will bankrupt civilisation and leave it impoverished and defenceless. Someone with more sense will simply move in and take over and ethnically cleanse us. It may well be happening already.

Google chicxulub and see just how many nuclear bombs of energy it takes to cause mass extinction and then relax and learn to love the puny little bombs we have.

AI? you mean teslas driverless cars. Probably save more lives than it takes.

[Fredxx]

I tried searching for this and found nothing. It doesn't help TAR being an acronym for Technical Appraisal Report.

Do you have nay cite for this?

[Nick Cat]

I believe we all know that.

I see

Not only are the costs of generating it all from wind disproportionate, you'd then have to run it through a 2nd expensive facility.

I think I can confidently dismiss it as unrealistic.

NT

[tony sayer]

What a day!, wind at .3 GW solar at sod all, and good old king coal beating the wind at all of 2.1 GW!!! Huzzah!!