Problems with email using BT

[John Rumm]

or Exchange...

Why are you finding it so difficult to understand a simple sentence like:

"Its quite common for the default setup on many mail servers to only accept either SSL or STARTLS connections now. "

For the avoidance of doubt, I do mean all servers, and not just SMTP relays. In "all servers" I include POP3, IMAP, Exchange, and SMTP. Only two of those can be relays.

Many ISPs and email hosts will only accept secure connections by default. MS do it with hosted 365 and Exchange mail accounts, as does Google, Rackspace and many other large mail hosts.

(you may recall your own difficulty accessing a Gmail account from Thunderbird for this very reason)

[John Rumm]

Is FTTP actually available in your location?

[polygonum_on_google]

Yes - that is what I am using right now. OpenReach decided, after surveying, that they would convert the entire estate to FTTP. which they did. Actually connected about a month ago.

FTTC and halfway-acceptable ADSL was available for a large proportion of the houses but, for some reason, there were a few that did not have either available. Just appalling ADSL. Now everyone has the FTTP option. Including the last few houses which are currently being built - OpenReach made sure that there is capacity and they will be connected at the appropriate time.

I'd also like to say that the actual OpenReach staff who came, surveyed and installed were a really friendly, hard-working crew.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No one uses X400 and Exchange uses SMTP when talking to the internet and no ISP on gods earte would use exchange as a mail relay.

# Because those are mail relay protocols

A server is where the data ends up. A relay is somethinhg it passes through. Those are part of the updated SMTP protrocols

POP3 dont use start TLS. Nor I think IMAP. And thsoie are not mail sensing protocols so fdall oustde te scop[e of thos ducsyssion.

You are weaselling to try and move the defintion of a mail relay to be identical to that of a mail server. It aint.

You dont need terabytes of storage on a relay for a start.

Irrelevant, It's still SMTP

Not me squire.

[John Rumm]

I think most would be comfortable with the concept of a "SMTP server", a "POP3 server" and an "IMAP server" as being fair description a software process running on a server that implements the server end of those protocols. As distinct from a POP3, IMAP, or SMTP client as typically implemented in desktop / phone mail applications.

Arguing over which bits are relays and what bits servers is an exercise in semantics that has no relevance to what was being discussed (i.e. the increasingly common requirement of mail systems that only secure protocols are used for mail transfer).

It does, the command is STLS

That also does, the command is STARTTLS

Full details in the RFC:

And again in English?

Whatever... I know what message I intended to convey. Sorry if its not working for you, but then again your were not the intended recipient.

Your memory must be going :-)

(you were arguing that you can't use Thunderbird with POP3 for recovery of mail from a gmail account).

[John Rumm]

You may find it was just a case of the database of available services had not been updated at the time you were looking. You can use the lookup on the IDNet website to find out now:

(that searches for GFast and FTTP availability)

Yup, often the case - the guys on the ground doing the work are usually very good. Dealing with BT retail however is often a less rewarding exercise!

[The Natural Philosopher]

They might be, but the established terminology is of an SMTP relay, because it *serves* nothing.

[polygonum_on_google]

Had already checked before posting - still not there.

So far, even BT retail have been OK. They took the order, kept us informed, sent the router, chaps turned up, all done. And working. Cashback on order is processing apparently OK.

Pretty much the only complaint has been an excess of communication - multiple emails and texts. But that is better than not enough.

[John Rumm]

If it sits there with an open rendezvous port, waiting for a client to connect, then its a server.

The term SMTP server is in very common use. For example:

(131 matches for "SMTP Server" in there, Vs 3 for "SMTP Relay")

[The Natural Philosopher]

No, it isnt.

A router does that.

[Tim Streater]

No, routers route packets.

[John Rumm]

For some reason I can't see TNP's reply which you quoted. However I am somewhat surprised by it since I had thought he had a better grip on networking related stuff and hence would know that a router is layer 3 device with no concept of end to end transport steam concepts like ports and sockets.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Every router I have had has a management interface. It listens to telnelt ssh or http. Does that make it a server?

[Roger Hayter]

Yes. In a rather trivial, but undeniable, sense.

[John Rumm]

Indeed - although that is not the bit doing the layer 3 routing.

Yes of course it does. Its running a web server, ftp server etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I wonder why we call it a 'router' then. Not a 'server' And a mail relay a mail relay, not a mail server.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Why dont we call it a server then?

>

[John Rumm]

Because that is its primary function. It likely has a network switch built in as well, but they don't call it that. Same for the built in WAP.

In addition to its layer 3 routing capabilities, it will have many actual servers built in that typically operate at OSI layers 4/5 and above, to facilitate management and other activities. The obvious ones being things like a DHCP server, plus HTTP, and Telnet/SSH servers to allow configuration. WPS server for automatic wifi configuration.

Same is true for pretty much any other box you plug into a network these days.

All mail relays are servers, not all servers are mail relays.

[Tim Streater]

Because that is their primary function.

[Roger Hayter]

The router I am using at the moment is an Atom (C2000) based PC which performs routing, NAT, firewall function and also contains such servers as DHCP, HTTP, syslog, ssh and some samba related networking service that doesn't actually work. I could probably call it a server, but mainly it's a router. Next to it as a machine that includes a functioning mail relay that in the context is probably better described as a local mail server.