Pre Part P liablity

[Doctor D]

Referring to the case of the death by electrocution of the daughter of MP Jenny Tonge:

Does anyone know if the "builder" who carried out the installation of the cable 10mm below the surface of the plaster, unprotected and running diagonally, faced any kind of action from the HSE or similar? I know the HSE are keen on taking action on building sites etc where dangerous practices have occurred.

When I was doing my C&Gs in Electrical Installation and Electronics Servicing in the 1980's we were told by lecturers that after our exams we would be considered as "somewhat" qualified, and would therefore be liable if we carried out electrical work which caused death or injury to a third party. Does this liability extend to criminal law, or simply a way for the family to seek redress through civil law?

To my mind, the builder who installed a cable to supply a cooker hood, represented himself to be competent to carry out this work. Would it be any different if a roofer installed roof tiles without fixings which slid off the roof and killed a third party?

Another thought crossed my mind with regard to Part P. We have a utility room with a tiled walls, worktop, sink, gas heating boiler, two freezers, washing machine, tumble drier etc. It's not our kitchen as it has no cooker, and no food is stored there. Why is this treated any differently to our kitchen for the purpose of Part P, surely the same risks exist? If I move the cooker and the food out of the kitchen, can I legally work on the electrics until I move the cooker back in?

[Tony Bryer]

AFAIK not. The fatality, as far as one can judge, came down to three things: (a) the (mis)location of said cable; (b) the fact that the towel rail was screwed into it with no check being made for embedded cables (IIRC the restricted zone rule is fairly new so an older cable could have been there); and (c) the fact that various people had been getting shocks off said rail but this was ignored.

So if you were to be prosecuted I suspect your lawyer would be asking for the installer of the towel rail (JT's SiL) to be made a joint defendant. Why all the reports were so reticent about naming the firm who installed the hood I don't know.

[Joe]

In message , Doctor D writes

I understood that the sink was the primary determining factor in the definition of a kitchen.

On a related note, I believe there are rules about the placement of power sockets near kitchen sinks. Do the rules extend to prohibiting the replacement of a sink which has sockets closer than the current rules allow?

[Doctor D]

So I can blame the estate agent! Yippee! Two kitchens and no utility room!

[chris French]

In message , Joe writes

There are no specific rules, though general stuff about them being sensibly placed in relation to the sink.

[Fred]

I would have thought the IEE might also be in the dock if the only mechanical protection was PVC channeling. They insisted for a while that all metallic mechanical protection must be earthed so ensuring any competant electrician used PVC mechanical protection instead!

[Mike]

You don't want that. We bought a house that did have two kitchens (was once two houses) and had to have one removed before we could complete as a condition of the mortgage.

[Andy Hall]

One guess. They were NICEIC registered........?

[Bob Eager]

Our house had two kitchens (it had been in multiple occupation, informally, no separate front door, since 1922).

We took one out a few years ago. Recently had the house revalued by the original surveyor, who still had his notes from 10 years ago! He said that the removal of the kitchen had DECREASED the value...!

[John Rumm]

I got the feeling from some of the bits I read that the misrouting of the cable was only "slight" - in that it did go a little out of zone, but was still mostly in line with the socket, rather than the 45 degree impression that some reports have given.

[Mike]

It does - it makes it a single occupancy which is what the mortgage company need for security on the loan.

[Bob Eager]

I don't follow that....!

We took out a mortgage when we bought the house. It was valued by the building society's surveyor.

We recently took out a second mortgage with the same building society, and they used the same surveyor.

So they had enough security on the loan the first time, and much more than enough the second time, this being ten years later and quite a small loan. So it didn't bother them at all, and it was only mentioned in passing anyway.

[Mike]

If there is a second kitchen then there is the possibility of a subletting. It is usually a condition of mortgages that no part of the house is sublet as this would make it difficult for them to repossess quickly if a problem arose. Hence we had to remove the second kitchen.

Of course once one has the house one could always install five kitchens but that's another story :-)

[Andy Wade]

Yes, it was introduced in an amendment to the 15th Edition which took effect from 12th June 1987.