Ping the Medway Handyman

Probably, which demonstrates that you can't *buy* education in itself, you can only buy the opportunity for education. If the child is unable to use the opportunity, it doesn't achieve anything.

Conversely, one can say that providing opportunity by virtue of access to facilities and low teacher:pupil ratio can facilitate education and learning.

I can still vividly remember my first days at primary school and indeed each of the teachers of my primary years. All of this was in the state sector. The teachers were essentially facilitators. Some children were interested in sports and were encouraged in that; others in natural history which became a great vehicle for learning some science in a real way. Others showed aptitudes in maths or english and were suitably encouraged in those directions. There weren't the hangups about selection at 11 that there became later through political interference. The point was that the children were encouraged to learn as opposed to being taught.

Some years later, during my secondary years, the comprehensive system began to be introduced. There was an almost immediate demise in motivation among teachers with the more able ones across a wide range of disciplines moving to schools still having selection (not all grammar I might add) and to the independent sector. I was fortunate in the sense that I had left the system before head teachers had become politicians and the major damage of the comprehensive system was in place.

I was able to go through university when that still had the approach of facilitating learning.

Nowadays, in both schools and the new "universities" we have what are basically training programs. Training does not equal education and it most certainly doesn't equal learning or the ability to learn.

In essence, for more than a generation now, the politicians have been comprehensively wrecking any semblance of education that we had.

Reply to
Andy Hall
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And ISTR Princess Diana got just one GCSE despite a no expense spared private education

Reply to
Tony Bryer

What's wrong with all kids going to their local primary school? The state system will always fail if the bright kids, able teachers, and pushy parents aren't part of it. The end game with private education is always social division.

Reply to
stuart noble

I explained that earlier in the thread. Our local one was grouping 5 and 6 year olds together and expecting the 6 year olds who had completed set work to help out with the 5 year olds and those who hadn't. For my daughter, who at the time had a reading age of 8+, a maturity to match and should have been in the year ahead, this was intensely frustrating. Children aren't stupid. One afternoon she came home and announced that she felt that she was being used (her exact words). We tackled the school about the year combining issue and they came out with some BS about it being local policy. I checked. It wasn't. We then attempted to get her moved to the year above. That was also declined because of "local policy". Again it wasn't. Given the state of affairs, an unwillingness to correct it and being lied to, the decision in terms of the principle to move them to an independent school became rather easy. The financial aspect was rather more difficult at the time and a lot was sacrificed. When it became my son's turn, there wasn't really a second thought about the principle but the financial aspect was even harder and lasted for many years. I don't begrudge a penny or a second of it.

Well... this is falling into the trap of assuming that educational success is aligned with academic ability. I don't think that it is and it's the mistake made by the majority of people. The important points about education are identifying suitability for the individual and matching their education so that *they* achieve it. The true measure of success is how well that matching is achieved. For some people it will be academic subjects, for others it will be different things. Both are valuable to the individuals concerned.

Yet, we have a public education system that perpetuates the myth that success in education equates to success in academic subjects. It even has the parents believing that and proceeds to try to deliver on that agenda. Of course the whole thing is a farce because it can't be achieved without reducing academic standards or creating subjects in which every child can succeed.

When I went to school we had bright kids academically and they (we) were encouraged to succeed, even including additional work if we wanted it. Those who wanted to play sports or do crafts were encouraged to do that. We certainly had able teachers who were willing to put in the extra work if the children wanted it, and we certainly had pushy parents. The difference was that they encouraged their children in the areas in which they could excel rather than banging square pegs into round holes.

I've described what happened with my own children a generation later. The academically able children were not encouraged but used, the teachers were not that great and certainly didn't have the level of commitment and pushy parents were not welcome.

I tried very hard to get it to work, but to no avail.

The end game is to facilitate more options in education for the child who is willing to make use of it, put in the work and stretch themselves. It doesn't guarantee any kind of privilege or meal ticket, contrary to popular belief. I already explained that my children were able to make a far broader circle of friends than they ever could have done at the state school. I would argue in respect of social division that the boot is on the other foot. The state system is doing that by attempting, without success to create homogeneity. The outcome is that they are creating a new generation of disillusioned school leavers. It is that that is socially divisive.

Reply to
Andy Hall

so what? even in a school that "doesn't" do that there can be a years difference in the age

they learn from that.

No, parents are though.

She is a child, let her be a child!

Most people here think you are a bit strange, this just adds to the evidence.

Reply to
dennis

Is separating on grounds of ability or aptitude more or less wicked than on the grounds of the parents' religious beliefs?

Owain

Reply to
Owain

So it's not appropriate or acceptable to do this.

Yes but not two and not an exectation that some children will be compromising their own potential in order to accommodate a wrongly conceived experiment that was not working.

Oh sure they will. Predominantly that the education system is not meeting their needs, or for that matter those who are on the receiving end of a 7 year old "teacher".

For tolerating this, yes I agree.

... and continue to see her coming home daily frustrated that she hadn't achieved anything and was being forced to use books and materials that she had picked up for herself at home a year earlier? I couldn't be that cruel. The school had no compunction about that.

Really? So what would you have done? Sat back, done nothing and accepted the lying?

If providing a proper education for my children because the state has demonstrated itself to be incompetent at doing so, then I am happy to be thought of as strange. Far better that than to be considered to be part of a muddled thinking crowd for the sake of expediency. This is something that I have never done and never will do. It's not the easy way, for a multitude of reasons, but it works well. I really don't care what other people think about that - they can make their own decisions to the degree to whcih they are capable of independent thought.

Reply to
Andy Hall

We make choices all the time. This is a choice. The real question is whether we are going to do so for ourselves or let others do it for us.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Big bugger! Few decks in the UK are like this IME, not just the size, but the height.

Reply to
The Medway Handyman

Most kids like teaching others. It's a natural instinct to give the stragglers a hand, just as those who are more physical help the boffins to skip and do handstands. It's the beginnings of SOCIETY!

The parents should perhaps have told her that she wasn't the centre of the universe. It's the main lesson they learn at primary school.

Reply to
stuart noble

To a point. It is not appropriate when it's deleterious to their own advancement. I should add that there were numerous complaints from parents and a number of children were moved by their parents.

I understand that some time later, the head teacher resigned from teaching and the arrangement was terminated.

Within reason this is true. It is not reasonable when those with an ability in a direction (any direction) are held back, not by their peers but by the deliberate mismanagement of those entrusted with helping with part of their education. Notice that I used the expression "helping with". I'm not even suggesting the subcontracting of education to the teachers. The first responsible party in terms of educational development is the child themselves, the second is the parents and the third is the teachers and the school. In our cases, the first and second of these was working extremely well but the state system and in particular the politically motivated actions of certain individuals were falling way short. For that reason, after much trying to persuade the third element to do its job properly and failing miserably, the decision was taken to replace. It was undoubtedly the correct decision.

No it's the beginnings of making dumbing down acceptable at the expense of the able individual.

The parents did and do, not that this was ever an issue in the first place.

If that's the main lesson that you or a school feels that it should be delivering, we are in even worse trouble than I thought.

The main lesson that should be learnt at primary school is how to go and find out about things for yourself and how to process and use that information. Schools should not be imposing artificial boundaries around learning in order to make the less able feel more able. That is cruel for all concerned apart from those in the middle who will not notice a difference. It should all be about pursuit of excellence, keeping in mind that excellence is achieved in different ways for different people.

Reply to
Andy Hall

I was almost happy with that till the last bit. Get over the fact that it's possible to disagree with you and still be capable of independent thought.

I had lunch with a friend from primary school this week whose general views are not dissimilar to yours. He scraped his fingers to the bone, said he did it all for the children blah blah, but of course it's a lie. He's just competitive by nature, he can't help it. He was like it in the playground 50 years ago, and he still is.

We all take a gamble with our kids. My two went to their first choice unis from the local comprehensive, so I can afford to be smug about it. Given that there would have been no sacrifice on my part, I'd have looked very silly had it all gone wrong, but I have a strong conviction that you're who you are long before you set foot in school.

Borrrring!

Reply to
stuart noble

Can you skip? I always envied the kids that could. I'd swap that for A level French any day.

Reply to
stuart noble

I've never thought that. Independent thought is the essence of the individual. The wheels come off of that wagon once one says that it should be an aim that everybody travels on the same train or accepts that it should be the status quo. Independent thought is about looking at the potential of the individual, not the mass and not accepting that things have to be the same for everybody.

I think that that's a big assumption.

There's a difference between being an individual and being competitive. Of course, sometimes they overlap, but it isn't the case that people with an individual outlook are necessarily competitive or the other way round.

For myself, I prefer to paddle my own canoe and also to set a very high standard for myself. A byproduct of that has often been to achieve a better outcome than that of others around me. However, and I think the point is important, I don't tend often to think in terms of how can I achieve a goal by the detriment of others. Often that doesn't work and others play that game anyway. I've always found it more effective in terms of achieving objectives, to stand on my own merits. Those are absolutes whereas competition, as most people understand it, is relative.

I completely agree, which is why I positioned the school and teachers as the third component of education and not the first or even second.

Reply to
Andy Hall

I have done.

I can understand that. I was never particularly interested in sports other than swimming and cycling etc. Team games bored me and still bore me to tears whether it's participation or spectator.

In the sense of not being able to achieve something that one really wanted to achieve, then I can completely understand. I have not had too many of those, fortunately, and have got over them.

Reply to
Andy Hall

I try in my mind to compare today's situation with what I remember of my childhood. Things certainly seem very different, but it's very hard for me to tell how much of this is because my outlook on life has inevitably changed as I've become more politically aware with age, and more aware of a wider society than I would have been a primary school.

In the 1960's and 1970's, my parents were both councillors (at different levels of local government and in different areas from each other), and both served as school governors (different schools). Neither were in the least bit policital though, and I'm sure would have had the interests of the relevant groups (local area they represented, and kids education respectively) as their primary concerns.

Thinking back to the end of that period, I recall my mother (then chairman of the school governors) becoming increasingly frustrated at policial parties pushing their staff onto the governing bodies with no knowledge of education at all to force party agendas on the schools, rather than considering each issue on its own merits within the education framework. Sometime in the early 1980's (I don't recall exactly when), mum gave up being a school governor as it had turned into polictics, not running schools. She switched her time to working on boards of charities, well away from politics again.

I often hear politicians say they went into politics because they wanted to improve peoples' lives, and in many cases I can believe that. I think it all goes horribly wrong when party politics then overtake their original intentions, and they turn into the same mold as fanatical religious groups with no capability for individual thought. Party politics should probably be outlawed -- it's called a cartel when the same thing happens between commercial organisations.

Going back to education, the teacher/parent/child relationship, the other change I can see is the attitude of parents to education and schools. When I was at school in the 60's and

70's, if you got into trouble at school, you prayed that your parents wouldn't find out as you would get into much worse trouble at home. By the 1980's, that had significantly changed in that many parents no longer respected and trusted schools. If you got into trouble at school and you told your parents, in many cases they'd turn up at the school threatening violence against the staff, which was completely unheard of and unimaginable in my school days. Of course, with lack of parental respect, a school is never going to have their kids respect either.

Don't know what this has got to do with DIY, but there you go!

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

As someone who retired after 35 years teaching, the last 24 as a primary deputy head, I couldn't agree with you less.

There are lousy teachers, just as there are lousy plumbers, electricians, bankers, Prime Ministers, whatever...

Reply to
F

A misquote of George Bernard Shaw's "those who can, do: those who can't, teach". But he did have an aversion to formal education anyway!

Don.

Reply to
Cerberus .

And who added, "and those who can't teach, teach teachers"?

David

Reply to
Lobster

Laurence J. Peter, Peter's Quotations: Ideas for our Time (1977)

Don.

Reply to
Cerberus .

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