Part P question

[Fred]

From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as the inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying for building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an exhaustive list such as: The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring Power to outbuildings Additional circuits Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That should just about cover it!

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this correct?

[John Rumm]

The form in question (a building notice) is very basic and seeks (or for that matter even allows for) much explanation. You get space for a description, and perhaps four lines of wording. I would have thought details that consisted of "partial rewire" would probably be adequate.

That last one is not a notifiable work under part P IIRC.

IIUC, it is a breach of the building regulations - in that you may have complied with the technical requirements (i.e. by completing the work in accordance with BS7671:2008), but failed on the procedural element of seeking permission first. However there is a procedure in place "regularisation" where even this can be soothed away later.

[Fred]

I am aware of regularisation. But in most instances, if a passage of a year has passed, unless there is a safety issue, there is generally little the council can do. I thought Part P was different, in that is an offence to start work.

My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and have it all regularised later?

[BigWallop]

Yes. Who is going to know what works you have, or are going to do (unless you blab your mouth off) inside you house. If you come to sell the property, then the best thing to do is get it all tested so you can say to the buyer "See, everything is up to standard" and show them the papers to prove it.

[John Rumm]

Same applies to part P as elsewhere I believe. You should not start work prior to notification unless in an emergency to make safe etc. However assuming you have started work, you can notify later (e.g. due to emergency or forgetting) and it still count it as notification rather than after the fact regularisation.

In reality it all depends on the approach of your local council. Most don't follow the rules as laid down by the approved documents, and will expect to either charge you for each inspection they carry out, or have you commission your own inspection and give them a certificate. Hence they are more amenable to carrying out multiple inspections over extended periods. It just costs you more. Some, play closer to the intended mode of operation, and do swallow the cost of inspection, however they are going to be far less keen on stumping up for multiple inspections on piecemeal work (hardly surprising since they probably make a loss on every one). Others will not bother to inspect and either take your word for it regarding the quality of the work, or carry out very basic tests themselves (like go round with a plug in socket tester).

[John Rumm]

The other option on the house sales form is simply to say "I don't know" with regard to the various certification questions.

[Hugo Nebula]

No. If you commence work (that is notifiable) before you have submitted an application, then you have committed an offence by failing to comply with the Building Regulations. Due to a recent change in the law, they can take a prosecution up to six months after the offence comes to light (subject to two years between carrying out the work and discovery). The twelve months is for serving a Section 36 notice making you rectify any contraventions of the requirements within 28 days. If you fail to rectify any contraventions, they can carry out the work in default at any time after serving the notice.

If you did notify them after the fact, to request a Regularisation certificate, they almost certainly would not give one without either, a) an *installation* certificate (*not* a Periodic inspection report) from the suitably-qualified electrician who installed it (i.e.., a member of NICEIC or other body), or b) some or all of the wiring exposed and either inspected by a Council electrician or a suitably-qualified electrician (usually at your expense).

If you *do* leave it until you come to sell, you run the risk of the buyer asking for the certification just before you are due to exchange, and them either pulling out or stinging you for the cost of "a complete re-wire".

[Mike]

Surely it's the *only* answer. If they want every bit of paperwork in triplicate then let them retrospectively apply for it. If the buyer wants to buy the property then they will.

If you haven't notified building control for something like double glazing or a boiler replacement because you deem it's none of their damn business then that ought to be fully understood and accepted by a prospective buyer.

[John Rumm]

When I sold my last place the buyers solicitors wanted the installation certificate for the boiler. I simply replied that I had installed it myself and hence none was available or required in the circumstances (pointed them at the HSE site for the gas safety statutory instrument). They seemed happy enough with that and it was not mentioned further.

[Fred]

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. As you seem it all sounds far more fraught if I carry work out before making an application. My original thought was to make an application, so to comply within the law, but to say the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay off an inspection for as long as I can. It then means I can carry out ad-hoc changes with impunity, when changing the kitchen layout or installing or moving a shower.

Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection from the local authority making sure that any alterations / additions comply with the current regs. What would be wrong with that?

[Roger Mills]

Several things!

Firstly, you have only two years to complete a job after submitting a Building Notice.

Secondly - if your local authority handles DIY Part-P applications in the same way as mine - you have to submit a spec and wiring diagrams for the

*whole* job up front. The BCO (who *isn't* a qualified electrician) will carry out an inspection at first fix time, before the cables are covered up - to make sure that the cables are the right type, go where they're supposed to, and are correctly protected. Then, when it's all connected up they send in a qualified electrician to do the final inspection and test. Without those three steps you won't get a Completion Certificate.

I also understand from my BCO that carrying out a periodic inspection retrospectively is no longer acceptable as an alternative to declaring what you're going to do up front.

[Tony Bryer]

FWIW I have just sold my property in the UK and on the form I put something like "various alterations to the electrical installation carried out over the last few years" and reason consent not obtained "these works were carried out in over an extended period and it was not possible to define the works to be carried out beforehand". No queries raised by the buyer at all. I had had my own periodic inspection done beforehand for my own peace of mind and had rectified the items I was pulled on, so had no concerns if the buyer had wanted a test.

On the gas side, I declared that I had installed the boiler myself and before putting the property on the market had it professionally serviced and got a Landlord's safety certificate so as to knock any queries on the head. IMO a "Landlord's" gas safety certificate should be mandatory on all sales; as for Part P, bin it!

[Hugo Nebula]

Why would you not want it inspected as you're going along? You have to pay upfront for a Building Notice. If you don't start (i.e., notify Building Control that you've started) within three years, the application is null and void, and you don't get your money back. Once you've started however, there is no time limit to how long you can take (subject to normal enforcement procedures if you do anything dangerous or don't rectify anything that doesn't comply). The inspection fee is the same no matter how many visits are made.

Have I got this wrong, or is what you're proposing to carry out the work, cover it over, *then* notify Building Control that you've done it and expect a completion certificate?

How is the Local Authority to know that what you've done is safe, much less complies with the electrical regulations? As pointed out before, Building Control will want to see the installation *before* it's covered over. If they can't, they will ask for proof from a suitably qualified electrician that it's been done properly or they'll want all the plaster taken off and the wiring exposed before they'll issue a completion certificate.

One of us has the wrong end of the stick.

[Fred]

I wasn't sure of the rules local authorities used regarding notices and inspections. I take your points and may I thank you and others for informing me of the general practices I should follow.

I'm happy for inspections to be done periodically as and when work is done. My limited experience of building control in other matters has been a rather cursory inspection, though I presume an experienced eye can tell all very quickly.

I was unaware it mattered where circuits ran when used in conjunction with an RCD, as long as runs are vertical or horizontal. I felt this can be checked with a wire detector without opening up the plaster.

My main intention was to reduce cost where I carry out the work myself, some of which is unknown at this time, hence making a generalised application.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I don't think anyone will object to it being inspected, but if I think back to rewiring my house, you would have had to make something like 30 visits over 10 years as I gradually worked through it, mostly at some point during the weekends and bank holidays. Doesn't really fly, but above all, the whole thing was really quite pointless.

Bear in mind that, other than the initial installation, most domesting wiring is DIY or unqualified builder, etc, and has always been so. If any significant proportion of the people who strictly should be filing building notices actually did so, there are nowhere near enough Part P electricians to handle the load (nor I suspect, BCO's). Outside of places like this newsgroup and the professionals directly involved, the awareness of Part P is virtually zero in any case.

It might be useful if the OP said which area they're in. In some areas, BCO's recognise how silly this is and don't force inspections on every bit of a long term DIY project, whereas in other areas, it would be impossible to do such a thing legally and you'd be better not starting down the application road in the first place. Someone else in the same area might be able to say what their experience was.

[George (dicegeorge)]

i'm told that the new blue and brown wiring have dates stamped on them so you cant pretend it was done before part P, where can i get some red and black wire?

what is the cutoff date for part P?

I remember rewiring a bathroom light new years eve a few years ago...

[Owain]

That's all right. You're allowed to replace like-for-like without notification, so as long as there was wiring there *before* Part P - which there was, wasn't there? then the new wiring was a simple replacement.

Owain

[John Rumm]

Cables should still be in the proscribed zones as before. A wire detector will show you some of the picture, but perhaps not all. Much depends on how keen the inspector is to know. Taking photos as you do the work could also help.

Not suggesting this is the correct solution, but I expect 99%+ of people will choose to minimise costs when doing this sort of work by simply ignoring building control entirely... Obviously one needs to do the actual work "by the book" to make sure there is no practical chance of any comeback later.

[John Rumm]

Many wires and accessories have been date stamped for some time anyway. Part P came in during the overlap period where both colours were allowed. So the colour alone tell you nothing. Even with a later date stamp its not conclusive - you may have replaced a cable after nailing though it for example.

Don't bother...

In what sense?

[Andy Wade]

ITYM prescribed! Proscribed means forbidden or condemned... C.f the hyper- and hypo- prefixes :~)