OT: Unopenable packaging

[newshound]

I have a leatherman crunch which has a mole-type pliers, but it is a bit chunky to carry everywhere. I'm still looking for the ideal "keyring" tool.

[T i m]

Our daughter is often carrying a knife but then she's also often carrying a chainsaw. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Liquorice]

But until the package has been opened you can't tell if the goods are going to match their description or not. If the goods don't match your expectations derived from the description(s) visible before the package is opened you reject the goods as you have been prevented in doing a proper inspection/test by the packaging.

Not my problem.

On the occasions I have taken stuff back, I make notes about the reasons for returning it in the instructions. Reselling of returns as new goods is one of the many reason I avoid any Dixons Retail company. Having bought a sound card from them found it to be noisey and some one elses configuration notes in the manual... I took it back and got a refund but had to waste my time and fuel doing so, not what one expects from "new" goods. The seller knew it was faulty/return but sold it as new.

Reselling returns marked as returns I don't have a problem with. At least the packaging will be open allowing a proper inspection. B-)

[Dave Liquorice]

Also AIUI any length locking blade is also illegal. Many multitools have locking baldes...

[T i m]

Whilst not quite keyring, I still think the PST II is the best combination of actually useable tools.

You can still pick them up on used on the net:

I think anything smaller might not be 'man' enough for some of the real world tasks you might expect such a tool to manage (especially when getting you out of trouble). [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] We broke down in our Bedford CF Campervan and it looked like there was something trapped in the carb float valve (it was flooding). I had a socket set with me and some ring spanners but needed an open ender to remove the steel hose from the top of the carb. The pliers on the PST manage that ok. Then I needed to remove the 4 slotted screws that were right under the bulkhead so with the largest flat blade set at 90 Deg from the handle, the PST removed them as well. It turned out to be a small sliver of machine screw thread was causing the issue. 5 minutes later we were on our way again. ;-)

Similar with a clutch cable on the Sierra (at the side of the road and away in about 15 minutes) and the battery terminals on the Rover, many many times.

[Dave Liquorice]

Taking back goods that came in a cardboard box with a little bit of sticky tape holding in the locking tab in is rather different to taking something back where the only way to open the packaging is to also make it very obvious it has been opened.

[879]

You normally can with modern transparent plastic packaging.

And if you open it and the goods don't match the description, you are legally entitled to a full refund because they don't.

If the goods don't match

Your expectations and the same thing as the description.

Legally that can't fly.

Legally it is if you don't like the way its designed but it does what it claims to do.

Sure, I do too, but that is a separate issue to your legal rights.

I am normally careful to not buy stuff which has been opened, but that is because its safer to buy the stuff that hasn't been opened.

Yes, that is indeed a real problem.

Quite a bit of stuff in the easy to open cardboard containers does have a seal put there by the store after the contents have been checked. I normally avoid those and buy the ones that haven't been opened, but legally you are free to return the opened ones for a full refund if you find that it doesn't work properly or not everything is there now.

[Davey]

I agree, but I didn't find that in this case. That is where I used the scissors. It's all in the recycle bin now.

[Dave Liquorice]

But I can't check that it does or doesn't do what it claims to do without opening the packaging. The claims can only raise an expectation of what the product can do. If that expectation is not met either the claims are false or the product is not fit for purpose.

There is a sealed opaque box labeled "Screw driver, for tightening or loosening screws". You can't examine the contents without half destroying the box. You want something for tightening or loosening screws, this "screw driver" device claims to do that, ideal. You purchase and take home, after all the claim matches your requirement exactly. You half destroy the box extracting the screw driver. It's a cross head screw driver, your screws are slotted, NFG to you. It's not fit for purpose, even though it can tighten and loosen cross head screws.

[F Murtz]

Of course you would not be able to stab someone with that file looking bit.

[879]

Yes, but if it doesn't, you are legally entitled to a full refund even if the package is destroyed to get it out.

If it does, you have no legal basis for returning it for a full refund so its academic if you have destroyed the packing to get it out.

Yes, but if it says it can open cans, it needs to be able to open cans, or otherwise do what it claims to do.

And in both cases you are legally entitled to a full refund so it doesn't if you have destroyed the packaging.

I haven't noticed too much opaque packaging that does need to be destroyed to get the contents out. Its mostly cardboard that is easy enough to get into and still leave the box in a resalable state if you decide that you don't like what is inside but don't have any legal basis for getting a refund and so need the item to be resalable to someone else.

[Bob Eager]

Well, he could just follow the roads!

(anyone else see the "Sleigh Ride" programme (rather like the summer's "Canal Trip") over Christmas?)

[Jonno]

Davey scribbled

I hear it can be deadly being stood up behind 10 dogs who can all run and take a dump without a pause.

[Jonno]

Bob Eager scribbled

All x hours of it ? How bored were you.

[Bob Eager]

You can do other stuff at the same time. But yes, I was bored. Wasn't very well for a start.

[T i m]

Of course not and I think it could then come under what they generically call 'sharps or points'.

So, if they (the Police initially) think you are carrying a long thin screwdriver 'without good reason' you might be accused of 'going equipped' and / or carrying it as a weapon (a point)?

"For the purposes of sections 139 and 139A of the Criminal Justice Act

1988, the courts have held:

A butterknife, with no cutting edge and no point is a bladed article; (Booker v DPP169J.P. 368, DG)

A screwdriver is not a bladed article; (R v Davis [1998] Crim L.R 564 CA)

A ?lock knife? does not come into the category of ?folding pocket knife? because it is not immediately foldable at all times; (R v Deegan [1998] 2 Cr. App. R. 121 CA)

It should be noted that even if an article is not considered to have a blade or point within the meaning of section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, it could still be an offensive weapon under section

1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 if the article is made or adapted for use for causing injury, or it is intended by the person carrying it for such use or by some other person for such use."

That last bit could come under the same thing as 'going equipped' where you happen to have a screwdriver in your pocket after helping a neighbour with a small electrical job and they accuse you of 'intending' of having it to hurt someone with?

Cheers, T i m

[Chris French]

In message , T i m writes

Nope, as you quote, a screwdriver isn't a 'bladed article', so section

139 CJA 1998 won't apply.

So you don't have to show good reason to be carrying it.

It could be considered an offensive weapon under section 1, PCA 1953. But in that case the onus of proof is on the police to show that you had

*intent* to use it as an offensive weapon.

[John Rumm]

I usually have my original leatherman in brief case... alas its getting a bit knackered now that the main blade broke. Its a bit bigger than I really want in my pocket all the time though.

[John Rumm]

That's the one I use... stands up to ridiculous abuse as well - the flat blade has a a profile that means it fits into a large posidrive screw head as well - use it open at 90 degrees so that you use the handle as a lever, and it will shift a 2" screw in a wall plug without either popping the handle apart or winding up the blade like a corkscrew. The pen is handy sometimes. Shame its not got tweezers on it though.

The only downside, is the steel used does not take a good edge on the main blade.

[Richard]

"879" wrote in message news: [e-mail]... Fuck off Rod