OT Problems with UK gas storage.

[harry]

Could be trouble ahead. This is UK's largest gas storage facility by a long chalk.

[Chris Hogg]

I'm inclined to ask 'so what?'. Rough is already five years beyond its design life. If its capacity is run down, and our gas reserves run out, then it'll be 'lights out' next winter for sure WTWDB&TSDS (when the wind doesn't blow etc) and renewables will be properly exposed for what they are: a sham; all smoke and mirrors (except the don't do smoke. That's combustion and CO2!). A clear case for lots more nuclear, eh Harry?

[Brian Gaff]

Was there not some scare a few years back about the Essex storage of frozen gas leaking out and producing inflammable permafrost in the surrounding ground if it were ever to melt? Brian

[Jeff Layman]

Well, according to the government Press Notice "UK Energy Statistics,

2015 & Q4 2015", renewables accounted for 25% of electricity generation.

From bullet point at top of page 2: "Renewables? share of electricity generation was a record 24.7 per cent in 2015, an increase of 5.6 percentage points on the 19.1 per cent in 2014."

If the figures for 2016 and the next few years are as good, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Renewables accounting for more than 100% within a few years. Well, it was headed "Statistical Press Release".

I see that there is quite a lot of speculation as to who first used "Lies, damn lies, and statistics", but I see the expression has since been modified to "Lies, damn lies, and government statistics". I wonder why...

[Davey]

I think there was a Dr. Who episode once with similar ideas.

[Chris Hogg]

ISTR several decades ago that the buried LPG tanks on Canvey Island were causing an ever increasing ring of frost-heave around them as over the years the soil froze. Questions were asked in the House

[Chris Hogg]

Not WTWDB&TSDS they didn't!

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well they count all the converted boilers at Drax that burn wood, and the hydro in there, and they lie about the actual wind and solar generation.

[Dave Liquorice]

Statistics,

I was just wondering how "renewables" got anywhere near 25% when Bio Mass and Hydro popped into the calculation. Wouldn't be surprised if they plonked the Nukes in there as well, after all one can "renew" the fuel and your not burning it releasing fossil CO2.

They aren't lieing, just not making it obvious what the make up of that 25% is and letting The Great Unwashed ignorantly assume "renewables" only refers to wind and solar PV.

[The Natural Philosopher]

no, they are seriously LYING.

The actual *measured* grid wind is way less than they claim is coming from even the grid connected wind farms.

The guvmint seems to calculate it on what they have to pay in FITS and ROCS.

It suggests serious fraud is going on.

[Chris Hogg]

Quite. According to Chart 6.1 in this government PDF document

70.7% of renewable energy in 2015 came from 'bioenergy', 3.2% from hydro and shoreline wave/tidal, 20.8% from wind and 4.2% from solar, heat pumps and deep thermal.

So, accepting that the total of that lot represents 24.6% of total electricity generation (see the Key Points, Bullet 7, at the top of that PDF article), bioenergy contributed 17.3% of the total electricity generated in the UK in 2015, hydro etc. 0.08%, wind 5.1% and 1.0% from solar etc.

So as a useful contribution you can forget hydro, and solar for that matter (no surprise there then), and wind isn't exactly exciting, but by far the most useful is bioenergy in all its subdivisions (see the chart again).

[harry]

TurNiP's figures don't show solar FIT

[The Natural Philosopher]

Actually hydro is very very important

Not because it generates a huge amount, but because its its the fastest dispatching form.

Without hydro we would have to have a gas powerstation idling away burning gas 'just in case' it was needed. Real spinning reserve.

When they built Dinorwig, for example, it was reckoned it saved a whole nuclear power station.

An yet Dinorwig is a net USER of electricity, not a generator!

The problem with wind and solar - apart from the appallingly low energy density and high cost, is the intermittency and total lack of dispatchability.

On all the counts that make an electricity generator good*, they score worse than anything else.

*Consistent steady delivery for baseload *High availability to maximise ROI *High capacity factor to maximise ROI *High energy density to minimise environmental impact. *High dispatchibility to cover short term demand peaks. *Low O&M costs to reduce overall costs. *Long lifetime to maximise ROI.

Wind solar and tidal fail on every single one of those.

HYdro and biomass at least have the ability to score highly on more than on feature each.

[Chris Hogg]

Which is apropos of nothing and irrelevant in this thread, and doesn't get away from the fact that despite its capacity, solar only produced a miserable 1% of the UK's electricity in 2015.

Of course it did. It was Summer - lots of sunshine, warmer weather, very little domestic heating, most coal-fired power stations probably shut down, or on standby in case of a cool dull snap but no doubt still producing CO2. It's nothing to be excited about. You can bet that the following six months will be rather different, but I doubt it'll get a mention in the Grauniad.

Er... so what? It still only produced 1%.

[harry]

Drivel You missed. Free primary fuel.

Security of supply (no-one can cut your primary fuel supply off.

Level of pollution/waste generated.

Dispersed generators (needs less distribution).

Levels of embodied energy.

[Dave Liquorice]

But rather low energy denisty, requiring huge collectors.

Nature can and does. Solar PV every night, wind when it feels like it.

I wonder how many of the windmill footings will be removed when they take away the jumbo jet on a stick?

You missed three words after "dispersed" - "to the countryside". I don't see wind farms in town and cities, which are the big consumers so to reduce the distribution the wind farms should be in the towns and cities.

Embodied?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Embedded presumably.

[harry]

[harry]

They are here to stay. Replacement turbines will be fittted on exisitng bases. The bases should last almost forever.