But, of course, the likes of Farage pitched things to those 'who had nothing to lose'. Promising things would indeed get better for them after leaving. Cheaper housing and better pay at the lower ends of the scale. More than odd for an extreme right winger like him. ie, the last thing they want.
Brexit has become a vehicle for all the groans, gripes and grumbles Leavers ever had about the EU.
Unfortunately for them, Boris's promise to wave a magic wand and make everything wonderful is not going to happen. You can almost feel their disappointment as they come back to earth with a bump.
We voted to leave. Fairy magic was not promised.
OK. Now tell me what remaining in the EU would actually mean (for the UK), and what leaving it would actually mean (for the UK).
Ah. So no more EU laws/regulations/Treaties would ever be passed in the future. "Ever closer union" would be on indefinite hold because its ultimate expression, a federal superstate, has not yet been reached. There would be no changes at all to how things work now. No new members for the EU - ever.
No doubt you do tea-leaf readings too. Any more handwavy bullshit?
Well said, Brian. We need to decide whether or not we are big enough to be self-sufficient and to restrict imports so as to protect our home industries - as the US seems to be trying to do. Sadly we are not, and we have lost a lot of manufacturing and raw materials capability (textile industry, steel industry, coal mining industry) so we have to import. I really don't know whether we export much - apart from knowledge and development skills for other countries to then manufacture.
Given that we are not big enough to be self-sufficient, we need to trade, and the idea of the whole world using a common set of trading rules and standards does seem eminently sensible. It would be fantastic if we could go back to the 1800s when we were one of the major manufacturers and exporters, but time has moved on and other countries (some of them former British colonies) can now undercut us.
Leaving means we would cease to be a member and, if we so chose, we could enter into all the arrangements and agreements we had before and more if we wanted although that is up to Parliament.
No binding promises were given to the electorate.
When Leave won the referendum, in a failure of comprehension, many thought all the dreamy nonsense mentioned in the campaign would now get delivered. I listed some of them but the government was not consulting the electorate about what hopes it had about any of these.
Yes. I explained elsewhere about the EU Withdrawal Bill acting as a Reception Statute, and I agree that once having left, we can vary the received law and enter new arrangements and agreements later if we wish to. Things like CERN are unaffected, of course.
No reason it should; no part of the Remain or Leave campaigns constitutes the Government, and if people wish a promise or suggestion to be taken up they have to campaign for it in the usual way.
You didn't mention what you saw as remaining in the EU would mean. To me it meant ever closer union, more interference from Brussels, but most of all that such interference would be by an unelected oligarchy calling itself the "EU Commission". Having had some slight exposure to the innards of that during my working life, I didn't like the look of it. There was arrogance even from the lackeys I had to deal with.
Our conditions of membership would have stayed exactly the same as they are now.
What you don't seem to undersartand is that any of the changes you describe there would require the wholehearted consent of every member state. And as a member state in the future the UK, quite possibly along with others, would have been able to continue to veto any changes which she believed were against her best interests.
As to "ever closer union" and a "federal superstate" they indeed will be on indefinite hold. Given that they're simply a pipe dream of here-today gone-tomorrow EU politicians which have no chance of ever being accepted by all member states. If for no other reason than all of the other 26 member states all hate the Germans just as much as we do/did in the UK. An undoubted fact which you appear to have conveniently overlooked.
It's not necessary to read tea leaves in order to compare the demographic makeup of areas which voted leave, as against those who voted to remain. And there again maybe all the various news organisations all hired actors in order to stage scripted vox-pops in which people explained the reasons why they had voted as they had. Or to be more specific the reasons some of them clearly weren't ashamed to own up to. Unlike some.
Similarly I don't need to read tea leaves in order to recollect remarks you yourself made on this very newsgroup, concerning immigration.
But there again perhaps you're better off sticking to your European Superstate Fantasy nonsense. Far better to be seen as paranoid and slightly eccentric than as a closet racist, eh old bean ?.
michael adams
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Indeed ! There's nothing more irritating in life, than arrogant lackeys !
I couldn't agree more.
Far better to stick with our far more deferential cap-doffing lackeys as one comes across, back here in the UK.
What possibly better reason could there be than this, to leave the EU ? Even if it means destroying the UK economy in the process.
Say goodbye to arrogant lackeys forever !
You know it makes sense !
michael adams
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'We' hate the Germans, do we? Given there are barely any left who could have been fighting us in WW2, and certainly none in any position of power, an odd view. Do you hate the Americans too because we were once at war with them? Indeed, given there are few countries in the world which England wasn't at war with at one time or another, just hate them all?
It's not an odd view at all. Germany is the strongest economy in the EU by far. And were any European superstate to ever emerge which it won't for the reasons given, then it would most likely be dominated by Germany. And the other member states have no more desire to be dominated by Germans than they had to be dominated Napolean and the French, 250 odd years ago. It really is as simple as that. Nobody likes bullies, either real or imagined, except the kind of toadies who would readily suck up to them for protection.
A lot of Europeans would probably strongly resent the cultural domination which the US successfully asserts on the UK; were they too, unfortunate enough to have American as their first language.
A favourite alternative history scenario of mine is if the Dutch had properly concentrated all their efforts across the Atlantic in the 17th century and successfully colonised what is now America. Rather than the token colony they meekly handed over to the British. So that all "Sopranos" episodes and the like would all be in Dutch and would require English subtitles
Clearly it doesn't seem to bother you that the news headlines on mainstream media can be dominated by news of the deaths of
10 Americans in yet another school shooting; while news covering the whole of the continent of Europe, our supposed EU partners goes totally unreported from one year to the next. The aprochryphal headline "Fog in Channel, Europe Cut Off" is as true today as it has ever been.Let's face it. The early colonists got lucky in landing up in a country which turned out to have extensive coastlines on two major oceans, which they could easily steal from the natives using vastly superior technology. While with an economy founded on cheap labour which was originally based on slavery, free raw materials and the largest homogeneous market in the world they could easily amass sufficient wealth to strip Europe of a lot of its cultural artefacts which they could then ship across the Atlantic. While in return they give us the likes of "The Sopranos", "The Wire", Facebook, Britney Spears, and American football. Along with the vomit inducing claim that their economic and cultural dominance somehow rests solely on their adherence to a form of representative democracy which nowadays produces presidents such as Donald Trump.
I mean, what's not to like ?
I can't honestly see where hate comes into this. Hate comes in very useful that's true, when we kit you lot out in your kilts and send you off to fight our wars for us*, but otherwise not.
*As detailed statically in relation to WW1 in "The Pity of War" by your fellow countryman Niall FergusonLying down and allowing other people to trample all over you - even to the extent of "identifying with the aggressor" by choosing to drive around in German cars - might come naturally to the inhabitants of some parts the UK, given that such subservience characterises a large part of their history - but to others I can assure you, it doesn't.
Anyway nice troll. Have you put that notice on your bell yet ? Basically if they missed/ignored it the first time round then they'll miss/ignore it on all subsequent visits unless something is done to rectify the situation.
You know it makes sense.
michael adams
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You voted to leave the EU and that is what you are getting, live with it. We are going to have to live with your cockup as well.
Remain meant we carried on as we were with the extra concessions we had just got until such time as we were unable to do so, at which point we could then think about leaving.
Leaving was unknown as nobody knew why they wanted to leave or what would be the costs or how long it would take, etc.
Now we have some idea but there are still leavers that think they can get their cake and eat it (and everyone else's too).
No, its up to the others we want to join with. Parliament can only negotiate and may get the/an agreement. We can't actually send a fleet out and force people to enter into anything with us, like we can't nuke them unless we want to die too.
Well I didn't.
I expected to win more concessions based on threats to leave. However all that went in the bin when it was decided we were going to leave no matter what. Now we will get the worst possible deal but it will probably be better than us actually leaving with no deal. The brexiteers won and know they and us have to live with it.
We used to be able to veto new members, not anymore, thanks.
I bet there isn't. Look at TNP, he wants civil war to breakout in the EU to destroy it.
You can't really take anything someone with that an extreme view seriously for anything.
I don't need to, I have been telling you what will happen for months, you just don't listen.
To put it in simple terms for you.
We will leave, we will be controlled by the EU in the same areas we are now, we won't have much say it what the EU does as we aren't members.
You brexiteers voted to let the EU get closer to a superstate as there is one less major country opposing it now.
You voted to leave, live with it like the rest of us have to.
They still have us over a barrel thanks. They might well still demand more knowing we will accept.
They probably will want us to take a share of the refugees which we have been opposing so far.
You voted for it so live with it.
Ahh the brexicide option. That is the worst we can do, by far.
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