oil fired boilers



More demand tends to lead to an increase in price.
I think that you will find that most domestic boilers use 28 sec Class C2 Kerosene
There is also 35 second oil, which I believe is similar to diesel. AIUI this is a much dirtier fuel requiring more frequent boiler servicing. It is not suitable for all boilers - possibly particularly those with a balanced flue rather than an a conventional flue.
I would expect your local supplier to be able to provide a price for 35 sec oil.
--
Michael Chare


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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:37:40 -0000, "Michael Chare"

Thanks for the reply. What do 28 sec and 35 sec mean? I think I read somewhere on the 'net that they are how long it takes to burn. But how long it takes to burn what: a litre, a gallon?
As 35 sec oil is dirtier, any savings on the cost of the oil, if there are any, would have to be balanced against the increased costs in servicing. I think I'll stay with kerosene for now. I'm still not sure why 35 sec oil cannot be used in a balanced condensing boiler though.
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Stephen wrote:

Nope. IIRC its how long it takes a standard ball in a standard tube to fall a standard height when the tube is full of the oil, nd is essentially a measure of te viscosity.

Probably can be.
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:21:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Oh not heard that one before I thought it was how long it took a measured quantity to flow through a given sized hole at the bottom of a defined size of container. Still a measure of viscosity though.
--
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Dave.




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Dave Liquorice wrote:

you could be right.
its one the things like 'proof' of spirits which is amazingly weird, but can be measured by a bloke with a measuring glass and a match.
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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:23:16 +0000, Stephen wrote:

No sight tube? That is the best measure of how much oil is in the tank. Leave it turned off at the bottom and you'll see the level drop when you trun it on to check the level. I think modern sight tubes don't have a turny type valve at the bottom but a press to read button so you can't leave it on accidentally. Failure of sight tube is good way to lose your oil...

How cold is it with you? Our boiler locked out last night, wouldn't stay running. Investigation of oil pipe run found a low spot and as it was -6C last night suspected a ice plug. Took that bit of pipe apart this morning in 8" of snow and more falling, found and removed a nice ice plug. B-) Reassembled, no oil inside, much faffing about suspecting air locks, use of hand pump, another ice plug (cleaned another section of pipe that was found to be a bit mucky and had slush in it). Eventually find the fire valve bunged up with black gunge, grrr. Only took me 7hrs to sort out.

Yes, with provisos on perfumes, dyes and sulphur content. They are both 28sec oils.

I doubt you'll find many garages selling paraffin these days. Best bet would be a garden center/DIY shed for greenhouse heater fuel.

If you can get the container connected into the oil feed. With a single pipe that might be fairly easy but twin pipe would be trickier. I must admit to thinking if I could do something like that today. Our boiler burns about 5l/hour so a jerry can would last about 4hrs non stop. Might investigate getting an engine adapter for a jerry can. Need to have the jerry can above the burner though to get fuel flowing under gravity to enable bleeding of the pump.

Yes but not mant do these days. One wouldn't normally burn road (white) diesel though that has >50p/l duty on it. You'd burn red diesel, that has about 10p/l duty. Kerosene for *domestic* heating has no duty and only 5% VAT. You might be able to reclaim the duty on red used for domestic heating and get the VAT rate down to 5%, but you'd have lots of hoops to jump through.

Quite likely but I don't know.

The base oil cost is much the same for all fuels be that petrol, diesel or kerosene. The price difference you see is down the varying duty and VAT rates.
--
Cheers
Dave.




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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:05:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
Cold due to no heating ;) The snow has all melted and it is above freezing so nothing too terrible really. My problem wasn't ice; it was a lack of oil!

So some water had got into the oil line and frozen? What is your pipe made from? Was it damaged by the ice?
How deep is an oil line supposed to be buried? Shouldn't it be deep enough not to freeze?
I don't know anything about how deep or what route mine takes. The exposed part is 10mm copper going into a concrete floor. Some people here don't like concrete and copper so I sometimes worry that it might be pin-hole leaks underground. I have wondered about running a new one so that I know it is ok and can add fire valves etc in the proper places but I guess there would be a lot of paperwork to complete if I DIY or a lot of notes to pay if I get an OFTEC plumber!

What hand pump did you use? Was this to force some oil along the line? If so, one of those would be useful. I had to bleed my oil line because it had run dry.

To be honest I was thinking about pouring it into the tank! Then I thought more. First there is the cost. I thought paraffin was sold in 5L bottles but it turns out they are only filled with 4 litres! Why?
I went shopping yesterday for paint and petrol and found that 4 litres of paraffin at Focus was 5.99; at our local petrol station it was 6.99 (though everything is overpriced there). Secondly, if I poured a bottle into the tank, I doubted whether the level would increase enough to flow.
Your suggestion is much better. Were you thinking of the paraffin being next to the boiler (smelly) or outdoors at the tank?
My oil line is 10mm copper, so I suppose I could fit a tee and fit a pipe from the branch to the paraffin bottle. Would you use microbore or would a flexible pipe be better?
The problem with this is that you would need to make sure the emergency pipe was properly isolated and didn't get accidentally turned on once you had the oil delivery, otherwise it would pour away! Is an emergency tee of the oil pipe even allowed? What are the regs on this?

That seems a lot at first glance. 1000L would only last 8 days but then that's based on the boiler burning 5L 24 hours per day, which does not happen in real life. Where did you get the 5L figure from? Is it in the boiler manual? I'm wondering what mine is. Is 5L/h typical?

What is an engine adapter? You seem to have planned in more detail than me, I might copy your ideas ;)
Though if I keep checking the level from now on, hopefully I won't need any emergency measures.
Thanks again for your detailed reply. Stephen.
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:43:38 +0000, Stephen wrote:

15mm copper, the ice could expand along the the pipe so no damage. Water probably came from condensation in the tank, though it is a bit worrying that it has also managed to get into the oil line.

Ours isn't buried it's sleeved in black alkathene pipe for protection (I guess) and runs about 15m along the outside of the building. This is an old installation that has old bits replaced over the years, like the steel tank and the boiler, the feed and filter are orginal.

It ought to be sleeved in the concrete, I don't know how much a problem concrete and copper is but you don't want an oil leak. The Enviroment Agency will go ape shit and demand all the contaminated ground etc is removed and disposed of properly, mega bucks...

Your fire valve is inside as well then?

Only if you want a certificate.

Define "lot of notes" one of our local chaps charges 150/day labour which isn't bad.

One of the squeeze bulb type, works as suck rather than push.

The line should flow under gravity well enough to push any air out. If there is an unavoidable inverted U provided the top of U is below the bottom of the tank, the oil should still flow under gravity.

Jerry can inside. Remember I thought I had a blocked line. Kero is a bit smelly but inside near the boiler it soon evaporates. 48hrs and any drips/spill from servicing are gone.

Tee is a good idea but you'd need valves in the two feeds (so you can isolate each) and as you say it would be too easy to leave the emergency feed open. Wonder if you can get a 10 or 15mm 3 port valve suitable for oil?

It would have to be flexable to hook up to the jerry can. Microbore does bend easyly but doesn't like repeated bending it fractures.

I doubt they cover it, I might ask my man.

It's a big boiler, 38kW output, the manual says 7l/hr but we have just had a smaller jet fitted to reduce the output as 38kW is overkill for the normal load. 5l/hr is a guesstimate.

A device that clips on the top of a jerry can with a flexable fuel line to say a small genset. The military use 'em but I can't find an example to look at on the 'net.

I take a weekly reading from the site tube bung it into a spread sheet and project when we are going to run out. It's normally pretty good and gives a few weeks warning obviously in the summer it projects several years but once autumn arrives it rapidly becomes more realistic.
--
Cheers
Dave.




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On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:32:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Yes but immediately where the line rises through the concrete floor. I was thinking if I could relay the oil line outside in plastic pipe then connect to a fire valve outside and then run 10mm copper in the kitchen to the boiler. Is there a reason yours runs in 15mm copper? That would be much nicer to use than microbore! Once inside the kitchen could I run the pipe along the wall? Would it be advisable to sleeve it in conduit for protection? My only worry would be running the capillary back to the fire valve. They are so delicate!

It's illegal not to, isn't it?

So you fitted it at the boiler end to try to suck oil into the house? I see. Is there an example of one of these for sale on-line or is it something you improvised?

It did, sort off. The boiler kept cutting out because at first it was quite frothy: a mixture of air and oil, but after I bled that out it was fine. I hear you can get these tiger loops but you have to fit them outside. Are these any good? Of course if the line runs dry, as mine did, a tiger loop won't prevent air getting in then.

Anyone know?

Let us know what he says please.

I had a good google but couldn't see anything, that's why I asked. Sounds like exactly what we need. Why invent the wheel if there's something out there already.
Thanks again, Stephen.
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:40:13 +0000, Stephen wrote:

Probably because that is what was available when the place was renovated from a shell about 30 years ago.

The bit of paper is only to keep lawyers and conveyancers happy IMHO. But TBH I don't know. I suspect the regulations are similar to those for gas. Provided your are "compenent" it is *not* illegal to work on your own gas stuff. What you can't do is work on someone elses or for reward without being a member of a doggie club.

Yep, only suck seeded in blocking the fire valve more effectively with the gunk in the pipe.

http://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/ec96/emergency-fuel-transfer-kit/dp/CP007 90?_requestidQ2034
Quite, Anchor Supplies near Nottingham mention them with the small Onan gensets they sell. But I can't find anything other than that
--
Cheers
Dave.




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On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:42:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Sorry for my late reply, I hadn't noticed the new posts on this thread. 28 pounds seems a bit steep. OTOH perhaps you get what you pay for: I bought something similar, but with a very small bore pipe, off ebay and it went in the bin the other week because it was so useless.

Just looked at their web site, very interesting. Thanks.
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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
saying something like:

No. Illegality only applies to gas and only if it's not your own. Anybody and his dog can work on an oil boiler, but dogs aren't very good at holding spanners.
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There are some really evil reply possibilities to that ...
--
geoff

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On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:15:21 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon

But I thought installation rather than just work on a boiler was notifiable, and I assume that costs?
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:32:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
I was wondering about this: could you simply use a flexible hose like the one that sits at the end of the oil line and connects to the burner? Or wouldn't that appreciate being partly submerged?
Aren't these supposed to be replaced or at least examined with each annual service? Are they all the same or does each boiler have a slightly different hose?
When they are replaced at the service why is this? Does the rubber perish? Do they have a short shelf life? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing it's in case the hose has been trapped or damaged in use. If they can sit on the shelf unused without deteriorating, could you keep one spare and if there's an emergency connect it to a tee piece before the final filter at the boiler end, and if there is no emergency, use it at the next service?
Thanks.
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wrote:

Sorry to reply to my own post but looking at: http://www.bes.co.uk/products/078.asp
I was thinking of using something like part 10822
but then I noticed at the top of the page Qual-oil pipe, part 13105. I wonder whether that would be suitable? Obviously it's not worth buying 50 metres for, but if I had the oil line relaid using that and I had a bit left over...?
I couldn't find any 3-port valves so I guess we would have to use two separate ball valves.
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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:05:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

A 4' tube arrived from Toolstation this morning ;)
Sadly it didn't have instructions with it but I looked at the BES web site and that seems to have given me enough info to think about fitting it.
It is made of PVC tube rather than glass, so hopefully that makes it less likely to shatter and leak if knocked.
It looks to me as if you are supposed to fit it direct to the tank. It even has a flanged nut to be used as a tank connector. How do you get into the tank to fit this? Mine is a steel tank. I imagine it was made in two halves; the connector fitted, and the two halves welded shut. I know I can't fit it direct to my tank. How big a hole do the modern plastic tanks have? Is the opening large enough to fit your hand in or is it big enough to send a small child in? ;)
I wonder whether you could use the sight tube connector to draw oil for a jerry can when lending some to your neighbour, or is the flow too slow to be useful?
My tank has a pipe that looks about 15mm (1/4 inch?) which goes to a very old gate valve. There are no compression nuts so I am guessing there is a BSP taper inside the gate valve. The other side of the gate valve has the same pipe going to an oil filter, again no visible fittings. The other side of the filter is 10mm microbore. I would like to replace the oil filter (the plumber said replacement filter elements were not available in that size) but I have never figured how to take the old one off and fit a new one.
The sight tube has 1/4 inch BSP connections. Since I don't know what this mystery pipe is, I am guessing the easiest way to connect the sight tube would be to fit it into the 10mm oil line with some 1/4 inch to 10mm compression fittings. Does this sound good? Any ideas what the other pipe is?
Thanks again, Stephen.
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wrote:

a) I would expect the steel tank to have a threaded outlet into which you can screw the guage, and some provision at the tope of the tank for securing the top of the guage.
b) I have a Crossland filter which has paper elements that should be changed every year or so (3-4000 litres). If the element is not changed it will eventually clog up.
--
Michael Chare


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