oil fired boilers

[Stephen]

Hello,

As you may remember, I've had an oil fired boiler fitted. Mine uses kerosene.

The gauge on my tank was broken. The threaded part had snapped so that it didn't screw into the tank, which meant fumes escaped and it could be smelly. So I bought another gauge and carefully chose one from BES for a four foot tank. The gauge said the tank was a quarter full. This morning the boiler cut-out. No oil!

Are there any gauges where you can fine tune the reading so that empty reads empty, rather than a quarter full?!

I did try one of those electronic ones that transmit by radio to a meter indoors but found the reception to be flaky and just as inaccurate; I often wondered if it was reading someone else's tank!

There's a delivery on the way now but are kerosene and paraffin the same thing? In a scrape can you buy paraffin from the petrol station and use that or are there any fuel duty implications, or is that just for cars? IIRC paraffin is about £5 per gallon, so it would be an expensive way of doing things but in an emergency?

One last question. I understand that some boilers burn diesel. Is this the same diesel as in cars? The instructions for my boiler say it cannot be used with diesel. Yet I sold the burner from my old boiler to someone who had a diesel boiler and he said it only took ten minutes to convert to diesel use by changing the nozzle and pump pressure (IIRC). Is heating diesel cheaper than kerosene? I'm thinking if there's a lot of demand for diesel as a fuel, does that drive prices down or make it more readily available?

Thanks, Stephen.

[cynic]

Very common failure. The only 100% accurate measure is a manual dipstick, followed by a transparent sight tube but don't forget tp keep checking it.

At a cost and still not 100%

No duty problems but horrendously expensive. Try borrowing a bit from a friendly neighbour

road fuel carries duty thus costs the earth. It will burn in a suitable burner as will heating oil aka gas-oil but contains a lot of sulphur and boiler servicing becomes more onerous. The costs are generally similar unless you are on an industrial scale. Basically stay on kerosine aka 28 second burning oil

[Martin Bonner]

And if you have a transparent sight tube, don't forget that ones installed post-Noah are not permanently connected to the oil in the tank. You have to press a button which allows the oil to flow between the sight-tube and the tank. (This does have the advantage that when someone breaks the sight-tube without noticing, you lose the contents of the tube, not the contents of the tank.)

[Stephen]

It's a 1970s house and when it was built it was ok to fit the tank in the garage. The problem with this is that I don't have room to hold a rigid dipstick above to drop into the inlet. I could use a flexible one but then how would I know it had gone down straight and I had got an accurate measurement?

Do you know any names? I have ordered a sight tube this morning. I hadn't realised that you had to press a button for these to level; that could catch people out, but the other poster explained why that is - thanks.

I realised some time after I posted that 1 gallon bottles of paraffin must not be a problem regarding fuel duty because why else would petrol stations and garden centres sell it? Obviously any duty must already be included in the price. What are the 1 gallon bottles used for apart from greenhouse heaters?

I think it's five pounds per bottle, which must be three times the price of heating oil delivered but I guess that's the magic of bulk buying.

I think I can wait until tomorrow. I've got a fan heater for CH and an immersion heater for HW. I think if I bought paraffin I would need a few bottles to fill the tank high enough to reach the outlet. I guess adding just one gallon would only raise the level a millimetre or two and would not work. Still it's nice to know that paraffin and 28 sec kerosene are two names for the same thing.

How do you poach some from your neighbour (with their permission)? Siphon it?

Thanks, Stephen.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Stephen writes

Tape measure?

The agricultural solution to your no fuel problem is to tilt the tank:-)

regards

[Michael Chare]

I do that with my steel tank but can you do that safely with these new fangled plastic tanks?

[Michael Chare]

More demand tends to lead to an increase in price.

I think that you will find that most domestic boilers use 28 sec Class C2 Kerosene

There is also 35 second oil, which I believe is similar to diesel. AIUI this is a much dirtier fuel requiring more frequent boiler servicing. It is not suitable for all boilers - possibly particularly those with a balanced flue rather than an a conventional flue.

I would expect your local supplier to be able to provide a price for 35 sec oil.

[Alang]

There used to be indicators where a float in the tank had a wire attached which ran over a pully at the top with a small weighted pointer on the end. The float goes up and down. The pointer outside shows tank full when it is on the bottom and tank empty when at the top. Quite simple and you could probably make one yourself from an old tin can some wire and any old item for a weight. But I have no idea whether it would even be legal these days.

[Dave Liquorice]

No sight tube? That is the best measure of how much oil is in the tank. =

Leave it turned off at the bottom and you'll see the level drop when you= trun it on to check the level. I think modern sight tubes don't have a turny type valve at the bottom but a press to read button so you can't leave it on accidentally. Failure of sight tube is good way to lose your= oil...

How cold is it with you? Our boiler locked out last night, wouldn't stay= running. Investigation of oil pipe run found a low spot and as it was -6= C last night suspected a ice plug. Took that bit of pipe apart this mornin= g in 8" of snow and more falling, found and removed a nice ice plug. B-) Reassembled, no oil inside, much faffing about suspecting air locks, use= of hand pump, another ice plug (cleaned another section of pipe that was= found to be a bit mucky and had slush in it). Eventually find the fire valve bunged up with black gunge, grrr. Only took me 7hrs to sort out.

Yes, with provisos on perfumes, dyes and sulphur content. They are both =

28sec oils.

I doubt you'll find many garages selling paraffin these days. Best bet would be a garden center/DIY shed for greenhouse heater fuel.

If you can get the container connected into the oil feed. With a single =

pipe that might be fairly easy but twin pipe would be trickier. I must admit to thinking if I could do something like that today. Our boiler burns about 5l/hour so a jerry can would last about 4hrs non stop. Might= investigate getting an engine adapter for a jerry can. Need to have the =

jerry can above the burner though to get fuel flowing under gravity to enable bleeding of the pump.

Yes but not mant do these days. One wouldn't normally burn road (white) =

diesel though that has >50p/l duty on it. You'd burn red diesel, that ha= s about 10p/l duty. Kerosene for *domestic* heating has no duty and only 5= % VAT. You might be able to reclaim the duty on red used for domestic heating and get the VAT rate down to 5%, but you'd have lots of hoops to= jump through.

Quite likely but I don't know.

The base oil cost is much the same for all fuels be that petrol, diesel = or kerosene. The price difference you see is down the varying duty and VAT =

rates.

[Dave Liquorice]

As it's empty and only for a short while I think the tank would survive. Obviously spread the load at the lifting end with a thick board so you jack doesn't try to puch a hole through the plastic.

[Dave Liquorice]

Means hole in the top of the tank, lets in water, see one of my other posts about todays trials... B-)

But as the OPs tank is inside that wouldn't be a problem for him.

[Dave Liquorice]

It doesn't taste very nice but it's not as foul as petrol.

Could do or use a small pump suitable for fuel oils, hand or electric. Some tanks may have a drain c*ck (to let the water out) which is handy for this use as well but best check that you are getting oil not water!

To be worth while your looking at at least 20l (a jerry can) that's about

20kg and having some means of connecting that to your boiler without pouring it into the tank. I guess you could make several trips or have lots of jerry cans and pour it in but think about how your are going to lift 20kg to the top of your tank and be able to pour it. Could use the pump again I guess.

[Stephen]

What a clever idea!

Another clever idea. I guess the tank is not secured and is only held down by its own weight so it could be lifted by a jack. How heavy is an empty 1100L steel tank (roughly 2 metres long, 60 cm wide, and over a metre tall). Would a car jack be up to the job or do I need a more heavy duty one?

If the tank isn't secured, isn't there a health and safety issue here that you could pull the tank on top of yourself? Then again, if it is that heavy I suppose you wouldn't be able to pull it over and I doubt such H&S rules existed when the tank was fitted in the 1970s.

This is all academic as the oil delivery came early this morning. After bleeding the air from the oil line, we are all nice and warm now.

Thanks.

[Stephen]

Thanks for the reply. What do 28 sec and 35 sec mean? I think I read somewhere on the 'net that they are how long it takes to burn. But how long it takes to burn what: a litre, a gallon?

As 35 sec oil is dirtier, any savings on the cost of the oil, if there are any, would have to be balanced against the increased costs in servicing. I think I'll stay with kerosene for now. I'm still not sure why 35 sec oil cannot be used in a balanced condensing boiler though.

[Stephen]

I guess this is what I already had. A float that was connected to a dial. The dial was a sealed unit, so I don't know what was inside; presumably a spring to keep the line taught. This read 1/4 full when we ran out. However, I tied a bow in the line to shorten it and it now reads empty when it's empty ;)

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Stephen writes

100kg or so. Car jack easily although, as others have said, spreading the contact point might be wise. The usual trick is a length of 4"x2" and a convenient fulcrum with a second piece to pack the tank support; carefully remembering to remove this when fresh fuel is delivered:-)

regards

[Stephen]

Cold due to no heating ;) The snow has all melted and it is above freezing so nothing too terrible really. My problem wasn't ice; it was a lack of oil!

So some water had got into the oil line and frozen? What is your pipe made from? Was it damaged by the ice?

How deep is an oil line supposed to be buried? Shouldn't it be deep enough not to freeze?

I don't know anything about how deep or what route mine takes. The exposed part is 10mm copper going into a concrete floor. Some people here don't like concrete and copper so I sometimes worry that it might be pin-hole leaks underground. I have wondered about running a new one so that I know it is ok and can add fire valves etc in the proper places but I guess there would be a lot of paperwork to complete if I DIY or a lot of notes to pay if I get an OFTEC plumber!

What hand pump did you use? Was this to force some oil along the line? If so, one of those would be useful. I had to bleed my oil line because it had run dry.

To be honest I was thinking about pouring it into the tank! Then I thought more. First there is the cost. I thought paraffin was sold in

5L bottles but it turns out they are only filled with 4 litres! Why?

I went shopping yesterday for paint and petrol and found that 4 litres of paraffin at Focus was £5.99; at our local petrol station it was

6.99 (though everything is overpriced there). Secondly, if I poured a bottle into the tank, I doubted whether the level would increase enough to flow.

Your suggestion is much better. Were you thinking of the paraffin being next to the boiler (smelly) or outdoors at the tank?

My oil line is 10mm copper, so I suppose I could fit a tee and fit a pipe from the branch to the paraffin bottle. Would you use microbore or would a flexible pipe be better?

The problem with this is that you would need to make sure the emergency pipe was properly isolated and didn't get accidentally turned on once you had the oil delivery, otherwise it would pour away! Is an emergency tee of the oil pipe even allowed? What are the regs on this?

That seems a lot at first glance. 1000L would only last 8 days but then that's based on the boiler burning 5L 24 hours per day, which does not happen in real life. Where did you get the 5L figure from? Is it in the boiler manual? I'm wondering what mine is. Is 5L/h typical?

What is an engine adapter? You seem to have planned in more detail than me, I might copy your ideas ;)

Though if I keep checking the level from now on, hopefully I won't need any emergency measures.

Thanks again for your detailed reply. Stephen.

[Stephen]

I was thinking that I could have siphoned oil from the donor tank but I had naively thought I would lift the can and pour it into my empty tank. You are quite right; it would have been too heavy to lift and siphoning would not have worked at the second tank. I guess I would have had to use a few small (gallon size) cans rather than one big four gallon can. I suppose a 12v pump solves a lot of problems but you need the pump and even on ebay they are £70, and then you need to take a car battery to the tank and that's probably as heavy as the 20L jerry can!

Thanks again, Stephen.

[Stephen]

A 4' tube arrived from Toolstation this morning ;)

Sadly it didn't have instructions with it but I looked at the BES web site and that seems to have given me enough info to think about fitting it.

It is made of PVC tube rather than glass, so hopefully that makes it less likely to shatter and leak if knocked.

It looks to me as if you are supposed to fit it direct to the tank. It even has a flanged nut to be used as a tank connector. How do you get into the tank to fit this? Mine is a steel tank. I imagine it was made in two halves; the connector fitted, and the two halves welded shut. I know I can't fit it direct to my tank. How big a hole do the modern plastic tanks have? Is the opening large enough to fit your hand in or is it big enough to send a small child in? ;)

I wonder whether you could use the sight tube connector to draw oil for a jerry can when lending some to your neighbour, or is the flow too slow to be useful?

My tank has a pipe that looks about 15mm (1/4 inch?) which goes to a very old gate valve. There are no compression nuts so I am guessing there is a BSP taper inside the gate valve. The other side of the gate valve has the same pipe going to an oil filter, again no visible fittings. The other side of the filter is 10mm microbore. I would like to replace the oil filter (the plumber said replacement filter elements were not available in that size) but I have never figured how to take the old one off and fit a new one.

The sight tube has 1/4 inch BSP connections. Since I don't know what this mystery pipe is, I am guessing the easiest way to connect the sight tube would be to fit it into the 10mm oil line with some 1/4 inch to 10mm compression fittings. Does this sound good? Any ideas what the other pipe is?

Thanks again, Stephen.

[Michael Chare]

a) I would expect the steel tank to have a threaded outlet into which you can screw the guage, and some provision at the tope of the tank for securing the top of the guage.

b) I have a Crossland filter which has paper elements that should be changed every year or so (3-4000 litres). If the element is not changed it will eventually clog up.