New Lithium-ion Batteries?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

[The Natural Philosopher]

Still the non inflammable bit sounds good.

As I said, things are developing nicely in this area. The RC boys are already discussing stripping these out of the new power tools and flying them...prices are a fair bit lower we think than existing cells..although actual performance has yet to be established.

[Doctor Drivel]

These batteries are only what is on the market 'now' - and that is impressive enough. In the labs the performance is even better and the US government is pouring billions into battery research. I can see well within

10 years full EV cars around, and quite quickly they will replace the current polluting antiquate crocks. On 'currently available' technology the EV is 100% feasible. If the decision to roll out the infrastructure for charging, by the time it is in place battery technology will have improved greatly.

[Grunff]

You don't get it, do you? The energy for these electric cars still has to come from somewhere - where do you think that will be?

In other words, why is it better to burn the fossil fuel in a power station than in a car engine?

Electric cars are only worth thinking about once a significant percentage of domestic electricity is derived from nuclear or renewables.

[Mike Harrison]

Because it is much easier and effective to deal with emissions etc. when power is produced 'in bulk', and the grid allows power to be sourced from a variety of different methods depending on availability and demand.

[Grunff]

is produced 'in

In theory, yes. In practice, it doesn't work that way. Compare the efficiency of a car engine with the efficiency of an electric car (end-to-end).

Again, only in theory. In practice the source is gas, oil and coal.

Theory is great, the real world is different.

[Mike Harrison]

power is produced 'in

depending on

If nothing else it moves the emissions from 'everywhere' to a few locations, so it has the potential for huge improvements in air quality in built-up areas.

[Andy Wade]

I'd be surprised if it works out that way. IC vehicle engines spend a lot of time running at very low or zero efficiency in slow-moving or stationary traffic. I've no idea what the overall real-world efficiency of IC-engined vehicles actually is, but (guessing) I'd doubt it's more than 20%.

Electric vehicles should win hands-down, as the standing losses are so much less, and the power conversion efficiency through the inverter and motors should be quite high (80%?). A modern combined-cycle gas-fired power station approaches 50% thermal efficiency. AIUI electricity distribution losses are 10-15%, so the overall efficiency is over 40%. Now what's the overall efficiency of the battery charge-discharge cycle? If it's higher than 60% (as surely it should be) then the electric vehicle probably wins (YMMV).

[Doctor Drivel]

More than what you will ever know.

A power station.

You didn't read did you:

The gripe by environmentalists is that electricity is dirty and inefficient from power station to point use with latent heat and line losses. True when looking at heating buildings and hot water, where natural gas can be burnt at point of use at 90% efficiency. Heating your domestic hot water by electricity is about 30% efficient end to end.

However power generation is now more efficient with energy reclaim measures in place in the newer and more advanced stations - not to mention wind, solar, wave hydro etc. However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour fuel into an engine at a power station:

-> with advanced stack scrubbers,

-> that drives a genny,

-> that sends the electricity down a line,

-> then into a cars battery

-> and then propels the car,

...than pour the fuel directly into a current car.

75% of energy stored in your tank is WASTED, while only a few percentage points of energy is wasted from a battery pack - and the electric car is 100% clean at point of use, cleaning up cities at a STROKE.

Electric cars are also brilliant and super quiet to drive. The only thing that will prevent this charge towards 100% electric is the vested interest of auto and oil giants (who want to go hydrogen and fuel cell as well) and lack of political will - and ignorance too. Interesting times ahead and the back of filthy agricultural diesels we may see for good.

[Doctor Drivel]

Yep.

Yep, the efficiency of the electric is superior, and clean at point of use reducing misery amongst millions of repertory sufferers because of pollution by these vast inefficient pollution machines.

You mean your perception of the world is different.

[Doctor Drivel]

Which is 95% of us.

[Doctor Drivel]

Yep. Efficiencies are always quoted at full warm up and at optimum conditions and speeds, etc. In practice millions of small cars are hardly up to temperature as they only go a mile or to the supermarket, burning excess fuel, and in that time doing about 8 mpg or so. Not to mention polluting like mad while warming up.

95% plus now.

In the 90 percents.

It wins hands down. Technology is here right now to move over car and light commercials to electric drive. All it needs is political will to get the recharging infrastructure in place - Toshiba batteries can take 80% charge in 3 mins and full in 5. Mitsubishi have an all electric car designed with a clean sheet, coming in a few years or so (motor in wheel hub). By the time it is on the market, battery technology will have improved enormously too. All win, win, all the way.

Fuel Cells may be viable for heavier vehicles. No need for them in normal everyday cars at all, as full EV will more than do. And no regular expensive servicing except tyre changes. Brakes will be regen with a very low mechanical wear factor that will show up as a dash light when attention is needed.

[Pete C]

Who cares, at least they would be tax free electrons...

Would be quite handy to have domestic microCHP though, just charge it while the CH is running, at gas prices too.

Anyone know how many kWh/mile equivalent a typical car uses?

cheers, Pete.

[The Natural Philosopher]

power is produced 'in

depending on

25% nuclear, and IIRC 3 or 7% wind, and a smattering of other sources. So by no means all oil coal and gas.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Small car about 600Wh/mile

[mrcheerful]

In the states, priuses are being converted to a 9kwh battery pack, this gives the equivalent cost per mile of 180 mpg till it runs out (about 40 miles at sub 40 mph) then the standard system comes back in and you get 50 mpg , or of course if you need more than 40 mph it is available from the start.

lots of commutes are sub 20 miles each way on congested roads, so the conversion must be very nice to have.

mrcheerful

[Dave Plowman (News)]

This '180 mpg' depends on using untaxed domestic electricity to charge the battery and comparing the cost to that of taxed petrol. However, if you run a diesel on free old chip oil you might get 1000 mpg + using the same flawed comparison.

[Doctor Drivel]

Knock on the neighbours door and ask them for chip oil because you are going to work? Wow!

[Andrew Gabriel]

I saw a TV program a month or two back (can't remember what it was) where this was demonstrated, and the presentor went out in in the car using chip oil. No mention that it might be illegal, etc.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It's not illegal but you have to pay tax on it. Same as will happen when mains electricity charged EVs become common.

I have a pal at work that runs his car on waste commercial kitchen oil. All really you need to do is to leave it to settle then draw the clean stuff out from the middle. Fat floats on the top, solid waste goes to the bottom.