New Electrical Regs - Again

That would certainly be a good idea - though I can't help feeling it might not be a vote winner for the party that introduced that rule.

Possibly only a few votes at stake, however some MPs will have constituencies which have many older properties - and if you test to the 16th edition wiring standard then it might fail earlier standards, even though those standards do not necessarily present a hazard.

However, Labour have certainly sacrificed a lot of good feeling by introducing this lousy scheme.

PoP

This is a new one on me. It is certinaly not in GSIUR 1998 or AFAIK any BS normative document.

In fact you could have an extractor in the room (implausible) or in an adjoining open plan kitchen (plausible) with the open flue fire. However the likelihood is that aditional permanent ventilation would have to be provided.

All of which points to a thickie CORGI misunderstanding something he thought he heard someone once say down the depot, turning "need to be watch the ventilation if there's a fan in the room", where "the fan" referred in its context (a polysyllabic word and abstract concept beyond the reach of our jobsworth) to an *extractor* fan. This mention of an [extractor] fan has been transmogrified in the simple neural circuitry of our man who can't wait for proper gold braid on his lapels into "fans bad". After all, if he overinterprets the reach of some sacred Regs he's never actually read, nor read a rational guide to, what's the effect? More work for him, and naff-all chance of being corrected. Whereas if he errs on the wrong side, and lets something go which is potentially unsafe (and in the context of ambulance-chasing, the standard for "potentially unsafe" need mean only "superficially similar to a situiation which might increase a marginal risk by another small margin"), his precious behind is in danger of a slap.

This kind of incentive to over-strict application of regulations, and folk extension of their scope and meaning, is a peril which seems very rarely addressed by "self-certifying" trade body regulation schemes. Self-regulation has a natural bound where the cost of over-compliance lies with those being regulated; where such costs fall on the *customers* of those responsible for interpreting the regs "on the ground", the dangers of creating inappropriate incentives are considerable. Any carry-over to the forthcoming role of the NICEIC for domestic electrical installation is left to the imagination (which rules out most of the junior ministers, then ;-)

Stefek

Surely if you use a powerful enough extractor fan with an open flue fire, it will draw the exhaust gasses into the room?

Exactly this happened to a pal who had a 'normal' open 'coal' fire and a kitchen with breakfast bar through to the living area after he fitted a powerful fan in the kitchen. The idea was to stop kitchen smells reaching the living area, when what happened was smoke in the kitchen.

My neighbour, a widow, was told most emphatically by the chap that services her water heater - I assume CORGI registered - that her electric cooker could only be replaced by a registered tradesman. This *might* be the case with a gas one, so he simply transferred this rule to include all cookers. And she believes him rather than me. ;-)

Self-regulation

During the summer I fitted a ceiling fan in the bedroom, but because of the ceiling height it is installed below the recommended minimum level, I'm six foot tall and it whirls away about eight inches above my head!.

Looking at the instruction/installation booklet it states.. "Do not use ceiling fans and open gas heating appliances at the same time in the same room".. it doesn't say they shouldn't be fitted.

Self-regulation

During the summer I fitted a ceiling fan in the bedroom, but because of the ceiling height it is installed below the recommended minimum level, I'm six foot tall and it whirls away about eight inches above my head!.

Looking at the instruction/installation booklet it states.. "Do not use ceiling fans and open gas heating appliances at the same time in the same room".. it doesn't say they shouldn't be fitted.

He is, of course, making the standard politicians error of assuming that everyone will obey the law. What actually happens is that the worst offenders ignore the new laws in the same way they ignored the old ones and the benefit obtained is *much* smaller than that predicted.

Only for members of the 'inner party' if I remember my Orwell correctly.

It's the same with those that call for stiffer penalties for whatever. Unless there is a fair chance of being caught after breaking the law, the penalty acts as no deterrent whatsoever to the criminal. And the more new laws that are passed, the less chance there is of the existing ones being enforced.

I wonder if the introduction of speed cameras has caused the increase in drunk driving? At one time, stopping a driver for speeding gave the police a cause to breathalyse them.

I also wonder what all those police released from traffic duties now do - you certainly don't see them on other patrols.

One thing that I am sure will result from this stupid legislation is that people who were previously inclined to obey the law may in future decide that lawbreaking is worth the risk. So as a result the number of "crimes" will rise.

Sir John Harvey Jones, ex-ICI chairman, made a statement some time ago that very often when a new law is introduced to combat a specific problem area the end result is the exact opposite of what was intended. I think these new electrical regulations may well have that effect.

PoP

No, the GSI&U regulations do not forbid DIY gas work and do not make use of CORGI registered operatives mandatory unless the house is being rented or the operative is paid.

Agreed (with the emphasis on "ish"!).

I think poisoning the water will be an amazingly unusual result of DIY gas work while not following plumbing regs.

I'm fairly convinced it has...

And the fall in the number of drivers convicted of "due care..." and similar offences certainly isn't because of an improvement in the standard of driving.

I agree.

There is also a perception aspect.

Think about gas fitting as a comparison. I bet that if I asked people in the plumbing section of B&Q Warehouse whether they had done or would consider installing a gas appliance, the vast majority would say no. Let's assume that people would answer honestly because the question is non-attributable - artificial I know, but needed to make the point.

B&Q does stock most of the materials needed for installing gas appliances:-

- copper pipe and fittings which are generic

- selection of black iron fittings

- cooker bayonet outlets and hoses

- isolating valves

- soft copper kits to connect fires

- thick PTFE tape

- manometers

- smoke matches

You have to look for these things but they are there.

I suspect that for most people there is a perception that gas is inherently dangerous and is the preserve of the professional.

Now consider electrical work.

In the same branch of B&Q, you will find a very comprehensive selection of electrical goods ranging from consumer units to light fititngs and conduit to earth rods - in fact almost as much as an electrical wholesaler; albeit rather more expensive. There is normally at least a full aisle of the stuff.

This stuff must move, because retailers measure shelf space in revenue per square metre per annum.

So essentially people are used to doing electrical work on their property and do not perceive this as being unsafe.

Do I think that B&Q will withdraw electrical goods that will implicitly require NICEIC member installation or a visit from the building inspector? No.

Do I think that they will put up warning notices and give leaflets to every customer? Possibly.

I bet that if I were to ask the average punter whether he will take notice of the new regulations, the answer will be no because he has always done his own electrical work.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote | There is also a perception aspect. | Think about gas fitting as a comparison. I bet that if I asked | people in the plumbing section of B&Q Warehouse whether they had done | or would consider installing a gas appliance, the vast majority would | say no. Let's assume that people would answer honestly because the | question is non-attributable - artificial I know, but needed to make | the point. | B&Q does stock most of the materials needed for installing gas | appliances:- [snip list]

including gas fires and boilers themselves

| I suspect that for most people there is a perception that gas is | inherently dangerous and is the preserve of the professional. | Now consider electrical work. ... | So essentially people are used to doing electrical work on their | property and do not perceive this as being unsafe.... | I bet that if I were to ask the average punter whether he will take | notice of the new regulations, the answer will be no because he has | always done his own electrical work.

Also, even if gasfitting *was* Corgi only, it wouldn't have that big an effect. Most households only have a boiler, cooker, lounge fire, and these aren't moved or changed very often.

However there are many more electrical appliances and sockets and people do move these around, change fittings, want to add a spur, etc. In many cases a reasonable diy job is safer than a temporary lash-up with flexes round the skirting etc. And the new regs won't stop those people who extend table lamp flexes with terminal strip or plug in their drill with matchsticks instead of a proper plug , etc.

Provided someone uses the proper accessories and follows the Readers Digest pictures carefully, it's difficult to do a really dangerous job. Unlike gas, which leaks out slowly and then goes Bang! modern electrical systems are pretty well protected with MCBs and RCDs that they are generally fail-safe.

Owain

Me too, C. Eng and Eur. Ing, with the basic underlying qualification being a degree in Electrical Engineering.

Since it's 'us' (in the generic sense) that write the regulations surely we are somehow qualified to say that they have been complied with.

Surely also there is the question of how one tells what changes have been done since a certicficate was issued (or not). A certificate doesn't describe the installed wiring in any detail as far as I know so it's quite impossible to decide whether it applies to what's actually installed.

In this sort of situation I really don't see how anyone will ever know that a certificate should have been issued, and thus in most cases it won't be.

Matchsticks conduct electricity? Isn't that *dangerous*? :o)