my discussions are sometimes being transferred to other forums?

[polygonum]

I assume that alt.fr.outil.thunderbird doesn't meet your requirements? :-)

[John Rumm]

Plusnet now subcontract their news service to giganews, who are one of the top providers.

(uk.telecom is there, btw!)

[Andy Burns]

mozilla.support.thunderbird

However the group is only carried on the server news.mozilla.org (even though that is outsourced to giganews).

[John Rumm]

You are fundamentally misunderstanding usenet. Its a distributed system with multiple severs spread all over the world. That is the way its supposed to work - you post to one, it is replicated on all the others.

DIYbanter is nothing to do with the group beyond the fact that it acts as a web based front end to scrape content from it.

"They" is a bit of software, you think it cares?

[John Rumm]

Have a look at:

for details of how usenet itself works:

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Traffic is also visible on a mailling list though. See a list of all the mozilla mail lists, at:

TB-specific one can be joined via options at:

[Martin Brown]

to some messages I was being notified that my email was going public and had an option to go ahead or cancel.

If your email address is swimmydeepo at a well known ISP that sounds something like an American cowboy shout then it already is very public.

simply delete the line showing my email address - that way the dialogue box doesn't appear anymore and no discussions are being "stolen" (even temporarily).

Download Thunderbird and subscribe directly via AOIE (provided you don't want to post to uk.rec.gardens - for reasons that are completely incomprehensible to me that group is blocked for posting from AOIE).

Oh and use a posting identity that is sacrificial for Usenet postings or one day you will wake up to find 1GB/day of hostile emails arriving in your inbox. That happened to me in the great Swenfest of 2003.

on broadband and deleting on headers GB/day spam rates are challenging to deal with and we are overdue another such incident.

BTW Google groups now also screws up the line breaks and double spaces everything quoted which does not endear you to denizens of Usenet.

Defects all left in place as a protest against Google's incompetence. Their share price deserves to go through the floor.

[swimmydeepo]

guess what? this very thread disappeared from UKDiy for a while (since this early afternoon) - I googled a bit and found it in another site - this time it wasn't DIYBanter but homeownershub.com...now, I find it again on the right site (where I started it). Our threads (or those of too relaxed fellas like myself) are just public properties (ok, no damage there) - so public that not even us the "authors" can access them as we wish...

HOMEOWNERSHUB STOLE MY THREAD

let's see which site is next to add to the "name and shame" list...

[Arfa Daily]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. The 'net by its very nature is basically an open global public service. The only reason that usenet has been somewhat 'private' to date, is that the average computer Joe doesn't even know it exists, or if they do know, haven't a clue how to access it. In recent years, that has changed by virtue of web-based access engines such as Google groups and DIY banter. There are many others that trawl their content from usenet as well. I am very active on an electronics repair group, and have engaged in many posts regarding Bose equipment repair, and repair of a particular CD changer mechanism from Sanyo. I get private emails all the time from all over the world from people who have tried to research repairing these items using the web, and have turned up my usenet posts on all sorts of web forums that I've never even heard of, let alone contributed to.

However, far from having a problem with this, I'm actually quite pleased that these people have found my posts, and take the trouble to contact me to either thank me for them being helpful in getting a fix on their equipment, or to ask for further help and advice. At the end of the day, when I made the posts to a newsgroup, I placed the material knowingly on something that is in the public domain, so if it gets found by web-based scrapers, and ends up elsewhere, then sobeit.

Or am I missing something here ?

Arfa

[Martin Brown]

early afternoon) - I googled a bit and found it in another site - this time it wasn't DIYBanter but homeownershub.com...now, I find it again on the right site (where I started it).

properties (ok, no damage there) - so public that not even us the "authors" can access them as we wish...

They haven't *STOLEN* it they have taken a copy of it. Your original thread is still where you put it. Although you don't seem to have the first clue where that is and you don't seem to be learning either.

I don't think you have yet grasped the idea of how Usenet works.

It is an almost prehistoric system from the dawn of the Internet and originally intended for text based academic discussions. There are servers all over the world that shuffle the messages to every corner. You post to one and eventually it goes everywhere. ISPs don't like it because it is resource intensive and now a minority interest (ie they cannot make any money from it).

These days there are also a lot of people like you that have never heard of anything but the World Wide Web and to cater for that market various parasitic organisations scrape content from Usenet groups and present it in a web based interface to generate money for themselves.

Most of us on Usenet dislike this practice, but there is nothing that can be done about it. Some take their frustration out on people who innocently post to Usenet via GardenBanter and refer to a "forum".

If you read the following thread you might gain some insight:

$20banter$20forum$20rec.$2Fgardening/uk.rec.gardening/f0AyBMlPldk/ohNPdyqOEPwJ

[swimmydeepo]

You have missed the main point...I don't mind if my messages are spread all= over the web...what bothers me is that I don't find my threads (let alone = single messages) where I started them....why is it that I start a discussio= n using UKDiy then, after a few hours/days the thread disappear from the sa= me site but is found on another site (e.g. DIYBanter or else)...then the sa= me thread reappears mysteriously on UKdiy....it looks I've no control of my= own discussions somehow. Those who say "they haven't stolen your threads" are wrong...or maybe they = haven't checked at the right time. I use the same keyword on the UKDiy site= (fairly simple as my nickname is quite unique) and a long list of past thre= ads appears - I opt to sort by date (so I get the latest first) and I don't= see my latest....so I google to find that missing thread on the web and bi= ngo, I find it, but not on the UKDiy site! (that's really annoying). Now, since my thread are so public you can try by yourselves and find that = out. As I've already mentioned, I've been using UKDiy for ages and only recently= I'm having this problems.

[polygonum]

You are right - many of us seem to have missed your point. Probably because we do not know what you mean by "UKDiy site".

This Usenet group is actually called uk.d-i-y. And I cannot readily find somewhere called UKDiy.

[Tim Streater]

Yes, and swimmydeepo is still not getting a clue. Messages are not spread all over the web. They are spread all over usenet. Which is exactly what is supposed to happen, and is exactly how usenet works. What these web sites such as google groups and apparently something called diybanter do is to present a web front-end to usenet. So what starts on google groups can easily end up on say diybanter. And so what if it does.

The appearance or disappearance of posts or threads on say diybanter that may have started on google groups (or even on a real usenet group such as uk.d-i-y) is a matter (in this example) for diybanter only and has nothing to do with google groups or any usenet host.

If swimmy doesn't find his posts or threads where he started them he should take that up with people running whatever he started on. It's nothing to do with usenet.

[John]

[e-mail] expressed precisely :

Swimmydeepo, you still haven't quite grasped what's going on have you, so I'll try to explain.

"The Internet" has been around for many years but in the early days it was all text-based. In 1989, Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web (that's the www that you see in front of Internet addresses such as

and that gave us a way to use graphics and pictures and clickable buttons and all sorts of useful things.

To use the World Wide Web, you need something called a "web browser" - popular browsers include Microsoft's Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, and Google Chrome for instance.

Now, when you use a web browser to look at, say,

all the text, all the pictures, all the content of the website is created by, and belongs to, the BBC (I know that that's not quite correct but for the sake of my simplistic explanation let's just say that it is) and is held on the BBC's web servers.

The most important thing to remember is that we're talking about the World Wide WEB and WEB SITES.

USENET is not part of the World Wide WEB and does not use WEBSITES.

Usenet is a different system altogether and runs in parallel with the web. Usenet (for the purposes of this explanation) is 'old-fashioned' and text-based, it does not use websites and you cannot read, see or post any usenet content with a web browser. Instead, you have to use a 'newsgroup reader' or 'news client' such as Mesnews, Microsoft's Outlook Express, Forte Agent or Mozilla Thunderbird, to name but a few.

Just like a web browser connects to a web server so that you can see, read and even post to web sites, a news client or newsgroup reader connects to usenet servers for similar functionality. A usenet server holds 'newsgroups' that can be seen by news clients/newsgroup readers.

My ISP (BT Internet) provides a usenet server (called news.btinternet.com) that my newsreader (Mesnews) connects to, and I'm currently replying to your thread in the uk.d-i-y newsgroup held on that server.

You, however, are NOT using a usenet server or a news reader. You are using a web browser and you are looking at a website called

This is considered to be "a bad thing" because the people behind DIYBanter are copying all the content of the usenet newsgroup uk.d-i-y, pasting it into their website and claiming it as their own.

Everything you read on the 'forum' website

has been sucked up from the usenet group uk.d-i-y and everything you post into the forum website gets deposited into the usenet group uk.d-i-y. Websites like diybanter.com are called 'parasitic web interfaces' to usenet and there are many more of them besides just diybanter.com, but all are just interfaces or gateways to usenet.

Webservers (again, for this simplistic explanation at least) will hold their content in one place. For instance, in our example case of the BBC, the website

will be held on the BBC's webservers in, say, London, and that's it. If anyone, anywhere in the world, opens up their web browser and types into the address bar, they will be taken to the BBC's webservers in London. Usenet servers however, work quite differently.

When I've finished this message and hit the "Send" button, it will go to my ISP's news server at news.btinternet.com, but then it will begin to propogate to all usenet servers around the world that carry the group uk.d-i-y - so it could end up on some Outer Mongolian equivalent of diybanter.com.

My explanation may have some inaccuracies and is simplistic so no flame wars please folks, I just hope Mr Swimmy now understands ;o)

[swimmydeepo]

Thanks you all for all your efforts to make me understand all about Usenet,= News etc.

My point is very simple - is the point of view from a user of the internet.= .. This is what I do step by step:

1) I got a diy issue I want to solve so I decide to gather more opinions to= make up my mind - yes, let's use UKDiy - now, you are saying this isn't a = website...dunno, and it doesn't really matter to me (the user)...I just hav= e a few bookmarks that links me to UKDiy (since I've used it in the past)..= .now I believe this bookmark bring me to a certain IP number lets' call it = 1.2.3.4 (a fake one - obviously) which is associated with UKDiy. Now, I post my message (after signing in) then I log out and turn off my co= mputer... Later on, I turn on my computer to check if someone come up with something = interesting which might solve my diy problem...I use the same bookmarks whi= ch is linked to that same IP address 1.2.3.4 (which is associated to UKdiy)= - I don't see my thread on top (clearly some newer threads have been gener= ated which pushed mine downwards) so, I decide to search for my thread usin= g "swimmydeepo", but my latest thread isn't listed. I can see all my thread= there but not the latest one - (at this point I have to point out that fai= ling to find my thread using "swimmydeepo" I use other clues...still no sig= ht of my thread). As I know some of my threads are all over the web, I decide to check if oth= er "sites" have a copy of my thread...so I google and there you are, I find= my thread on another "site" (in brackets, as you say it isn't a site)... Now, I don't know exactly what you mean by "site" - the only issue that bot= hers me is that now I can see my thread on IP adress 4.3.2.1 (a fake IP for= DIYbanter) and not on IP address 1.2.3.4 where it was originally started (= and is bookmarked from my computer)...most frustratingly, someone answered = my message and it seems I'm being forced to enter my message on IP 4.3.2.1 = instead of 1.2.3.4 - I haven't tried but probably I can used both in a simi= lar way (signing-in in the same way without registering), but I don't parti= cularly like that other "site" format nor like the fact that my discussion = is now only on 4.3.2.1...and not on 1.2.3.4 anymore (then, I've found out t= his is only temporarily). Clearly, IP 4.3.2.1 is gaining from 1.2.3.4 (and wasting my time too). Mayb= e the 2 IP addresses are linked (as I've understood from your comments abou= t Usenet), but still, me (the user) is having some issue of USABILITY...(I'= ve been posting on UKdiy for more than 10 years by now...this problem has b= een noticed only in recent months). I believe some have found a sneaky and parasitic way to increase "clicks" a= nd "bookmarks" on certain IP addresses rather than others...

[Tim Streater]

True but both the web and usenet are *applications* that use the Internet. So is email, for that matter. And in the ordinary course of events you'd use different applications on your computer to access those applications of the Internet. So, f'rinstance, I might use:

Safari for the web MT-NewsWatcher for Usenet Apple Mail for email

You might use different applications altogether,, of course.

[Tim Streater]

We still don't know what UKDiy is but no matter.

And your message is on the website 1.2.3.4. If you don't see it there later, you must complain to *them*. Now, at the same time as they accept your message, they will also post it to usenet, and after a while it will be found on all usenet servers, which is how us usenet users see it

- on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup.

DIYbanter will have picked it up from the usenet group uk.d-i-y. Note that DIYbanter will neither know nor care where the message came originally from and will not be communicating IN ANY WAY with UKDiy.

You're not FORCED to, you can simply wait. The DIYbanter reply will get posted to usenet just as your original message was, and a bit later will be picked up by UKDiy and will be available there for you to see.

Well don't do that then. Just wait, as I noted above.

No, you're wasting your own time by not bothering to find out how this works. Because UKDiy and diybanter are just extra layers, extra time is taken before you see the reply.

Well, that's your lookout. If you used the correct piece of software (to reach uk.d-i-y you'd find things worked a lot quicker and more reliably.

The two IP addresses are only not actually linked at all. They just both happen to read from and write to the usenet group uk.d-i-y.

[sm_jamieson]

to make up my mind - yes, let's use UKDiy - now, you are saying this isn't = a website...dunno, and it doesn't really matter to me (the user)...I just h= ave a few bookmarks that links me to UKDiy (since I've used it in the past)= ...now I believe this bookmark bring me to a certain IP number lets' call i= t 1.2.3.4 (a fake one - obviously) which is associated with UKDiy.

g interesting which might solve my diy problem...I use the same bookmarks w= hich is linked to that same IP address 1.2.3.4 (which is associated to UKdi= y) - I don't see my thread on top (clearly some newer threads have been gen= erated which pushed mine downwards) so, I decide to search for my thread us= ing "swimmydeepo", but my latest thread isn't listed. I can see all my thre= ad there but not the latest one - (at this point I have to point out that f= ailing to find my thread using "swimmydeepo" I use other clues...still no s= ight of my thread).

ther "sites" have a copy of my thread...so I google and there you are, I fi= nd my thread on another "site" (in brackets, as you say it isn't a site)...

others me is that now I can see my thread on IP adress 4.3.2.1 (a fake IP f= or DIYbanter) and not on IP address 1.2.3.4 where it was originally started= (and is bookmarked from my computer)

The bookmark link to "UKdiy" on your computer (represented by 1.2.3.4) is a= link to where ? Please post the actual thing that appears in your browser address bar when = you click on this link, whether that is an IP address or a URL. Everyone here (unless they've got bored by now !) is wondering what on eart= h you mean by "UKdiy".

Simon.

[Martin Brown]

Take it up with UKDIY then! It is their broken interface to a working Usenet system that is giving you this grief. Your choices are simple - do it properly or live with the limitations of their parasitic feed.

make up my mind - yes, let's use UKDiy - now, you are saying this isn't a website...dunno, and it doesn't really matter to me (the user)...I just have a few bookmarks that links me to UKDiy (since I've used it in the past)...now I believe this bookmark bring me to a certain IP number lets' call it 1.2.3.4 (a fake one - obviously) which is associated with UKDiy.

interesting which might solve my diy problem...I use the same bookmarks which is linked to that same IP address 1.2.3.4 (which is associated to UKdiy) - I don't see my thread on top (clearly some newer threads have been generated which pushed mine downwards) so, I decide to search for my thread using "swimmydeepo", but my latest thread isn't listed. I can see all my thread there but not the latest one - (at this point I have to point out that failing to find my thread using "swimmydeepo" I use other clues...still no sight of my thread).

"sites" have a copy of my thread...so I google and there you are, I find my thread on another "site" (in brackets, as you say it isn't a site)...

bothers me is that now I can see my thread on IP adress 4.3.2.1 (a fake IP for DIYbanter) and not on IP address 1.2.3.4 where it was originally started (and is bookmarked from my computer)...most frustratingly, someone answered my message and it seems I'm being forced to enter my message on IP 4.3.2.1 instead of

1.2.3.4 - I haven't tried but probably I can used both in a similar way (signing-in in the same way without registering), but I don't particularly like that other "site" format nor like the fact that my discussion is now only on 4.3.2.1...and not on 1.2.3.4 anymore (then, I've found out this is only temporarily).

the 2 IP addresses are linked (as I've understood from your comments about Usenet), but still, me (the user) is having some issue of USABILITY...(I've been posting on UKdiy for more than 10 years by now...this problem has been noticed only in recent months).

"bookmarks" on certain IP addresses rather than others...

No. All that is happening is that the gateway "site" you have chosen is unreliable.

You should also be able to see everything you posted on Google Groups however that doesn't seem to be the case. Google is not indexing a fair proportion of your posts. Blame UKDIY ofr Google groups for that!

go to GG and look at your posting profile directly. They reckon you have only posted four times this year.

The thread is on there but the index doesn't have it listed!

maybe the XXXbanter sites are actually backdoors onto the Google gropes database ... I find it very hard to understand how both services should have identical search indexing errors in their databases.

(though xxxBanter might be using defective Google tools)

Although swimmydeepo is clueless there is something pretty weird and crazy going on here with postings that seem not to exist.

[John]

[e-mail] brought next idea :

But that's the whole point - yes, it does matter! As I said, the WEB is different and parallel to usenet.

...I just have

No, you haven't. Bookmarks only exist in WEB BROWSERS for looking at the World Wide WEB. You cannot bookmark uk.d-i-y as it is a usenet newsgroup, not a website.

This is due to the nature of parasitic web interfaces or gateways to usenet. As I said above, this whole thread may end up in Russia or Outer Mongolia on their regional equivalent of diybanter.com or google groups.

where it was originally

You may have posted your original question on diybanter.com but it has been picked up by google groups and someone has replied from there (or the equivalent).

- I haven't tried but probably I can used both in

Then PLEASE use a proper usenet news reader and stop posting into a usenet group through a web interface. I can't make it any clearer - the web sites (diybanter.com, googlegroups.com etc) are NOT uk.d-i-y