More hybrid figures...

Autocar last week did a comparison test between a Lexus GS450hSE, (hybrid) BMW 535D (diesel) and Merc E500 (petrol) Each was meant as an example of a 'state of the art' power unit in a luxury car. All were of course autos. As expected, the 5.5 litre petrol Merc had the best performance and by some margin. The BMW and Lexus were very close. But it's - as usual - the fuel consumption in the real world that is of interest. Here are the results starting with the official government ones.
BMW Lexus Merc Urban 25.9 31.7 16.7 Extra Urban 44.8 39.2 34.4 Combined 35.3 35.8 24.6
Real world:- Town 18.7 21.7 13.7 Motorway 31.0 29.0 20.6 Country 27.5 24.6 20.0 Test overall 26.3 25.9 16.3
So as usual, the 'official' figures bear no relation to real world driving conditions, and favour the hybrid.
--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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London SW

but remember to add in the exhaust emissions to the equation.
the Toyota drive train emissions and driveability are really nice, try driving them, the Toyota Lexus system is lovely.
as to real world stuff, my friend has a prius, he gets 60 plus in the winter and 55 plus in the summer. plus low tax and congestion charge.
Apparently though on long term running costs a hummer beats the lot!!!!
mrcheerful
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from "mrcheerful

I get 45mpg out of my elderly Audi and that's without the environmental expense of producing a new car.
--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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Yep. My wife's car gets 62mph and only costs 40 quid in tax.
I'm definitely in favour of much more punitive taxation for the higher classes. However, I hope they don't get too arsey with 7 seat Group E vehicles. I bought the lowest emission 7 seater I could find (and afford), which was a Zafira 2.0DTi. It had 4g/km too much for Group E. However, as its use often means that we don't need to run two cars for a journey, I bet, on average, that it saves us CO2 over a 5 seater Group D. I hope that this is eventually taken into account when the tax differentials ramp up.
Christian.
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Christian McArdle wrote:

Why?>
I am definitely in favour of punitive FUEL taxation, but leave the cars alone...
Fuel savings comes from all the little cars NOT doing the school run, NOT doing a supermarket run EVERY DAY and not doing 100 mile commutes every day.
Not from some poor old aristo who takes out the Roller once a week to visit Harrods..or the Range Rover to go grouse shooting.
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By taxing at a rate that is greater than proportionate to use, you are more likely to affect behaviour.
I just think that the number of seats in a vehicle should be taken into account to some extent, as the extra seats will take other vehicles off the road, reducing effective emissions. Obviously, this can't be overdone, or people will simply buy cars with more seats that they don't need. By dropping a band by having 7 (or possibly 6) seats or more, or rising a band by having 2 seats or less, the market will actually be less distorted and the tax more in line with the likely CO2 emissions per person/km.
Christian.
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On 2006-08-15 13:50:30 +0100, "Christian McArdle"

Except that it doesn't work. People who want to have big, fuel consuming cars will pay for them.

I am not sure that that's a logical conclusion. It might be if you were comparing buses of different sizes. However people use their cars as a family for the most part. They don't generally provide a local bus service, except in cases such as a very long run to school where it might encourage lift sharing among neighbours.

Is it a question of seats or space though? I like to have a large vehicle so that I can take stuff around easily. However, I don't want that many seats.

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Of course. To prevent that, you'd have to ban them, which I do not propose. However, I would like them to pay much more than proportionally more. That money I would like to see invested in CO2 neutral energy technology.
Also, it would deter a good number of people as well. Only the real petrol heads will continue with a Group G car. Lots of people would be put off and buy something less damaging.
Christian.
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I think the solution is to make people drive Ford GT40s like Jeremy Clarkson. Single digit mpg figures when used in anger but it only works for 1 day in every 10 so the average emissions are better than a hybrid.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
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The problem with your solution is that few could sleep with all the alarms going off outside the window.
Christian.
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Must be the worst person to sell a lemon to. ;-)
--
*In "Casablanca", Humphrey Bogart never said "Play it again, Sam" *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 2006-08-15 14:50:01 +0100, "Christian McArdle"

That's why it would be better to put the tax onto fuel in the form of a higher VAT rate rather than vehicles. Those consuming more fuel and used more often would attract higher cost.

Not sure about that. Taxation typically does not alter behaviour to any great extent for any length of time; the exception being the Lottery, which seems to attract the gullible.
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Andy Hall wrote:

But there are many people who live in areas where there is little or no alternative to private vehicles.
If VED was banded according to the address of the registered keeper, people in cities would pay more for possessing a car; people in rural areas could pay less. Similar to a congestion charge, but without the need for spy cameras to police. Admittedly some people would falsify the keeper's address, but that would render the insurance invalid and would also be a specific offence.
Although people moan about petrol tax, it doesn't affect behaviour because it's paid so gradually that it's absorbed into general household expenditure. An extra few thousand quid demand once a year would, however, prompt a fair number of people to consider if they really need/can afford a car.
And any employer saying that an employee must have access to a private car should have to pay the VED, to encourage increased use of pool cars or even a taxi account.
Owain
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Reasonable.
Which would again favour those with the ability to pay. Is that what you intended?

That's impractical. Increasingly people work from home and so a private car for business purposes becomes essential. Secondly, there is a trend away from company provided cars to car allowances. This becomes somewhat moot because it is treated as income for tax purposes.
Generally though, if people consider that they have a need or desire to use a private car, they will do so, and TBH, the government is wasting its time and our money if it believes it can alter behaviour.
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Andy Hall wrote:

Everything favours those with the ability to pay. Even the NHS favours those with the ability to pay and go private :-)

Largely true, I'm afraid. But a single expensive payment might have more effect on making people reconsider whether second car ownership for the school run is really worthwhile.
Owain
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Hmm... Not sure about that.

Maybe..... however, memories of single large payments soon fade....
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:11:49 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :

It has on company cars (which significantly determine the user car mix 3+ years from now) - would 50% or so of BMWs be diesel otherwise?
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk


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Different thing though.
The trend from company leased vehicles to car allowance (and typically personal lease) is a simple cash one that can be worked out.
On the one hand there is company provided car with business mileage, fuel allowance, personal mileage etc. leading to a certain tax calculation.
On the other there is car allowance, business, personal use and mileage claim for fuel. The variables are the combinations of personal and business miles and the tax implications of those.
All one has to do is to look at a three year period (for personal lease e.g.) and the trend on company provided car taxation.
At a certain point, they have crossed over or will cross over for most people. At that point, the decision is for a car allowance, it's not one of having a car or not.
Obviously it depends on the individual. I have very little UK business mileage since most of my travel is outside the UK. Thus I have a very low mileage on a car that I took on personal lease over three years ago. Consequently, I can extend the lease at a very low rate for a further two years. Works for me.
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My BMW is petrol, but my neighbour's one is a 535d which I've driven. And you'd be hard pressed to know it's a diesel, apart from the fact it doesn't rev so high when pressing on. The performance is stunning too.
--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I wouldn't have thought there was much work about for a deaf sound man ....
:o)
Yes, they're quiet for a diesel, but "hard pressed" is going a bit far.
--
"Other people are not your property."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
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