kitchen lighting

[Fred]

Hi,

Call me old fashioned or boring or both, but is the best way to light a kitchen with a 4' tube?

Our kitchen has a single fitting in the centre of the ceiling which originally had a 60w bulb; subsequently replaced with a cfl. The problem with this arrangement is that as the work surfaces, sink, hob, etc are around the edges of the room, wherever you stand the light is always behind you and your shadow falls over whatever you are working on. This is annoying me more now that we have darker nights and use the light more.

There seems to be a fashion for fitting dozens of halogen lights in your ceiling. I'm not an eco warrior but even so, I can't see why you need half a kilowatt of lights in your kitchen. To be fair, I've only ever seen these on the tv, so I don't know what they are like in "real life". I have seen a few houses where people have retrofitted a 4-bulb halogen light fitting in the centre of the ceiling and it creates four pools of light with a lot of darkness in between. I guess that's why you need to fit so many to get an even wash of light.

I'm thinking of going with a tube on the ceiling and/or tubes under the cupboards. What does the group think?

TIA

[polygonum]

We have four of the 10W triphosphor tubes (below) arranged around our cupboard tops (plus a fairly powerful CFL in centre pendant). At some point I might fit them - or extra ones - under cupboards. Only really waiting to decide about replacement cupboards, pelmets, etc. It does for now. And about 200% better than the multiway "spot" thing that was in the centre.

The colour of these lamps is good when new - but they do deteriorate, going a bit yellowish over time even when kept clean, so replacement tubes are needed.

[Andrew Gabriel]

This is a well discussed problem - a light in the middle of a kitchen ceiling is about the worst place to have one.

If you want the light in the middle of the ceiling to be effective, you want the light source to be as large as possible, e.g. a 4' or

5' tube. It's not most peoples' idea of aesthetic lighting though, and it's often better to abandon the central lighting point or use it for something low power and decorative (perhaps a large globe), rather than functional, with the functional lighting elsewhere.

In my mind, the best kitchen lighting is generated with fluorescent tubes on top of wall cupboards out of view, bouncing their light off a brilliant white ceiling. You can add task lighting to light up work surfaces under cupboards, preferably separately switched. I've designed and installed this in several kitchens.

[meow2222]

I'd probably leave the central fitting and add fluorescent over the worktop= & sink - or cfls if there's enough depth. CFLs have the advantage of easil= y changed power levels, less issue with tube quality, less upfront cost and= less effort obtaining replacements.

Central fluorescent is certainly a good bit more effective than central fil= ament or cfl, but at the end of the day the light's still in the wrong plac= e.

If you go with linear fl, use standardised tubes, stay away from any tubes = over 3500K, and ensure you can dim them. Cfls are easier in these respects.

NT

[John Rumm]

Na, gallon of paraffin and a match.... oh, I see what you mean! ;-)

Yup - a single point source in the middle, does no work well in most kitchen layouts.

The tube light gets round that a bit by having light from multiple directions. although used that way they can look a bit industrial.

Downlights are not that effective for lighting wide areas - at least not unless they are a long way from the subject. Not easy on modern low ceilings. Used sensibly they can make good task lights and good display lights. They are also ok in very small rooms where you cans use some "wall washing" from the lights to get a better coverage.

To make it pleasant to work in you need light that is illuminating the surface you are working on without being in your eyes.

One option that works well is to do away with the centre light altogether, and use strip lights under and over the cabinets - with the top lights hidden behind a cornice and reflected off a white ceiling. The bottom ones hidden by a pelmet.

That way you get even bright light everywhere, are never working in your shadow, and yet can't actually see the light source - so it does not matter if its not he most attractive thing.

[John Rumm]

Yup, same here. Very good for galley style kitchens as well.

For reasons which I have never really grasped, CFLs have very much poorer light quality than the proper tubes though I find.

The big standard tubes can be a bit bright for under cupboard lights though - the slim link light type seems better suited. For the top above cabinet lights the normal tubes are fine, cheap and long lasting)

[polygonum]

sink - or cfls if there's enough depth. CFLs have the advantage of easily changed power levels, less issue with tube quality, less upfront cost and less effort obtaining replacements.

filament or cfl, but at the end of the day the light's still in the wrong place.

over 3500K, and ensure you can dim them. Cfls are easier in these respects.

Why do you say that about 3500K? The linklight link I posted was to lamps with 4000K colour - and pretty acceptable that is. No - I would not wish full northern daylight 6000K or so.

We don't bother with any form of dimming - simply switch some on/some off as needed. One lamp is plenty for getting a glass of water or other minor functions. Three work well for a lot of the rest - or all lights when good lighting positively required.

[Geo]

Can't speak for anyone else - but I think so.

[ARW]

The fashion is still there. You just now fit LED lamps not halogen lamps. I do not have downlights in my kitchen

[Fred]

Thanks. That's interesting. I have learnt something new. Those are only 40cm long and 10W, so if you had not said, I would not have thought that they would be long enough or powerful enough to light a room.

[Fred]

I think you are right about this. If I wanted to try 7w, 9w, 11w, etc. CFLs, I would just need to buy a number of bulbs until I found one of the right brightness, whereas with a tube, I would need to buy the fitting as well as the tube for each size until I found the right combination, which makes the trial and error approach more expensive.

I never really understood colour temperature before, so I visited wikipedia but there was too much science ;)

All this talk about black body radiators. Do they exist in real life or are they theoretical only? Is there anything that comes close?

I had an unused 4' light fitting (from Wickes), so I placed that on top of the cupboard to see. On the one had it was not as bright as having the central light on, yet it was bright enough to do most tasks by. I guess it is just a matter of getting used to it. If I do do this, I would put a second tube on the cupboards on the other side, so I suppose the light would be doubled.

Looking at the Wickes web site, they only seem to sell 3500K tubes, so I assume this one is 3500K. I was noticeably more blue/white than the CFL.

Looking on the internet I see 3500K is described as "white" and 3000K is "warm white", and 2700K "very warm white". I was wondering whether to buy a 3000K tube to see if I preferred the colour from that, but I have read more web sites and it seems that CFLS are 2700K, so perhaps I should look for a 2700K tube, though they seem rarer than the 3000K ones. What were tungsten filament lamps? Were they 2700K too?

I think you are right about not going above 3500K; I would say lower, but it's all personal taste.

[Fred]

I found it strange that the same manufacturers make tubes and CFLs yet the tubes are 3500K and the CFLs 2700K. I guess that's responsible for the difference you have seen: they use different coatings on the tubes? I don't know why though. You would think it would be cheaper to use the same for all tubes.

And as Polygonum said, the tubes don't have to be as long as the cupboards, which surprised me.

[Fred]

I think it is personal taste. I found the 3500K too blue but OTOH I do have the same tubes elsewhere (garage and loft) and have never noticed it. Perhaps I would get used to it in time.

I am puzzled why we don't like daylight bulbs. After all, daylight lights our homes during the day, so why not use them at night? Or is it the wrong sort of daylight?

I am not sure that I would need dimming in a kitchen but I suppose dimming a tube that is too bright is cheaper than buying a smaller replacement. When I did my test, I found, like you, that just one lamp was enough to do most tasks by but I would want a second one on if cooking etc.

[polygonum]

Maybe need to include Colour Rendering Index and not only temperature. Perhaps that is why the linklights are so acceptable (IMHO)?

lamps actually include their CRI but often in "coded" form. I think if you see 827 on a lamp that means 80-89% CRI and 2700K temperature.

[polygonum]

The nearest to a black body radiator is often taken to be a hole!

Imagine a furnace with a small hole in its wall. The emissions through that hole, interpreted as if the hole itself were a solid at the temperature of the interior, would be a good approximation to a black body.

[Fred]

I didn't think you could light paraffin with a match? ;)

I think if you had a big kitchen with a couple of rows of tubes along its length it might look like a supermarket ceiling but I think one or two tubes would not look industrial.

I realise it is all personal taste but I'm not too bothered what the lamp looks like, I more interested in how well it lights the area. I've never understood the attraction of lights that look pretty but don't illuminate anything usefully. But that's just me ;)

I would like to see some SWMBO-friendly maintained lights though. I just about got away with fitting one over the CU but I have a second that I have not been allowed to put on the stairs.

On a light-related note: round dry lining boxes, I have never used one. I can see how it is easier to use a hole saw to drill a circle of the perfect size, rather than cut a square but then what? Is the circle the same size as the rose of a ceiling pendant? Does the rose screw directly into the dry lining box? Is it that it saves you having to fix the light fitting with rawlplugs/redidrivers/etc?

TIA

[meow2222]

Some people don't mind high CCT tubes, but a lot do.

Perception of CCT and brightness level are interrelated. At the much lower levels of electric lighting, things look much higher CCT to the eye.

Also there's noticeable correlation between temperature and taste. In cold countries people often prefer warm low CCT tubes, in hot coutries they mainly use cool high CCT tubes.

People frequently fit far too much power with fl lighting. Reduced levels are more comfortable in late evening etc.

NT

[John Rumm]

The power varies with length... however if you string a row under all the cabinets and also over the top, you can quickly come out at 200W or so for the kitchen. (hence why switching them in banks makes sense)

[John Rumm]

Even comparing like with like colour temperature wise, the CFLs seem to have a noticeably poorer spectral output. I never find myself standing under a normal strip light thinking, "why is there only half as much red in this picture as their should be?" whereas with all the CFLs I have seen so far there are noticeable gaps in their output.

With a good white ceiling, the light will bounce around a bit anyway.

[John Rumm]

Its because we are attuned not only to colour temperature, but also brightness. If we get light of a particular temperature but the wrong brightness level to go with it, it seems "wrong". Hence daylight colour, and vastly below daylight illumination levels seems very "blue".