kitchen electrical work

[Tim Smith]

Hi

Since we are having our kitchen refitted, the supplier arrange for an electrician to put in some new sockets.

Unfortunately, when they installed the kitchen, they foudn that one of the sockets was in slightly the wrong place (almost directly behind the gas hob).The new cables had been nicely chased into the wall coming up vertically to the socket.

To move this socket to the left, they have done literally that - moved the box and taken hte cable through a 90 degree bend and filled in the plaster. Im assuming that there may even be a junction behind the plaster as the cable wont have been long enough.

Ive attached a picture

I saw this, I told the fitter that I didnt believe that this was within the regulations (and at this point I hadnt even thought of teh point amount a cable join) as cables have to go vertically or horizontally to sockets. His argument was that it was safe as I was tiling the wall.

To cut the story short, I have now p****d of an otherwise excellent installer and wondering if Im correct with my (very limited) knowledge of the regs and if it is something that I shoudl really worry about.

Now the units are in, it will be impossible to relocate this cable under the floor, is it acceptable under the regs to run the cable the required distance to the left along the skirting board (and possibly putting a connection box in) and the running a cable of the required length vertically at the required location ?

Thanks for any help,

Tim

[Andy Hall]

The cable routing is not permissible as shown because the change of direction is not at a wiring accessory and not within 150mm of a corner of the room.

Notwithstanding the above, a cable connection using crimp connections in an appropriate way is allowed. Screw terminals are not if the connection is inaccessible.

This is bullshit. What happens at some point in the future if somebody carelessly removes the tiles from the wall and goes into the cable using a chisel? One should never assume that the rules have been followed, but this is plainly non conformant.

Yes you should. Ask him if he is a member of an approved electrical contracting organisation such as NICEIC. If he isn't, then a building notice is required under part P of the Building Regulations and an inspection should be made. This would not pass.

Ask him for a completion certificate. I suspect that if you looked in his tool box you would find a set of spurs in there.

It is allowed to run cables hidden within a band 150mm from a room corner or the top of a wall. It is not permissible to run them buried in the equivalent position 150mm from the floor mainly because of the common practice of nailing skirtings. As far as I am aware, it is possible to run them on the surface in this area.

Then you can run the cables vertically buried and directly to the socket. They need to be vertical above the socket as well and not with the dog leg.

[Phil]

Instead of plastering (badly) over the BIG hole where his JB is, chould have put in a blank faceplate allowing access....

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I wouldn't accept that behind a hob because of the looks. Ok if concealed behind an oven, etc.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Basically, they've f***ed up. No excuses. It's not exactly difficult to give a computer generated plan with reasonably exact positioning of things like sockets for a job like this. It may not be mm accurate, but were're dealing with more like 300mm here, and at a place where the position is more critical than others.

FWIW, if the original position was partially behind the hob, IMHO the new position is too close also. It will get spattered with fat or oil when frying.

[Timothy Smith]

Hi Andy,

I just had a thought whilst discussing this with a friend.

Does it make any difference that on the original vertical path, there is still a cable going up the wall for the cooker hood. The cables appears out of the wall and teh socket is on top of the cupboard.

Therefore could it be argued that since there is a veritcal cable to the cooker hood and a horizontal calbe to the socket, that this is OK ?

Tim

Andy Hall wrote:

[Christian McArdle]

No, because the plastic accessory may be melted by the gas hob.

Christian.

[Bob Eager]

No, because the horizontal bit still isn't predictable.

I'd suggest a metal back box, a crimped joint, and a metal faceplate over it. The only other issue might be the temperature rating of the cable (usually 70 Celsius) and its location.

[BigWallop]

Do you know if the electrician has installed any covering over the cable before plastering it? If he's placed any type of earthed metal sheathing over the cable, then the cable shouldn't be that easily drilled through.

[Tim Smith]

No - I wouldnt accept that either....

Tim

[Tim Smith]

No - there wasnt any covering which is the same as the existing sockets in teh rest of teh room.

I plastered it myself whilst he was there. Just wish Id realised that his positioning of the socket was wrong before Id started.

Tim

[bigcat]

its not compliant but its certainly very minor

NT

[BigWallop]

It might be easier to remove plaster and slip a piece of metal over the cable, just in case. It looks like a very small amount of cable has been positioned at an angle, so it might be more trouble than it's worth to dig it all out and rewire it. I think the simple solution is to slip a covering on it just to make it a little safer.

[Ed Sirett]

Since you are tiling you could just screw a suitable sheet of metal over the cable route and bury it in the tile cement.

BTW the other socket should not be mounted on the cupboard although this is common practice.

[Tim Smith]

Hi

Just to clarify my original question. The Electrician appears to have done everything properly - afterall, he positioned the socket where it had been drawn on the wall, and had a vertical cable run to it.

It was the kitchen installer who then came and moved the socket and hence the dubious cabling.

However when I spoke to the electrician, he indicated that putting the horizontal (25cm) run in a conduit would make this complaint.

Is this correct?

Tim

[John Rumm]

If there is another accessory visible that is in line with the original vertical chase AND you use a heavy steel conduit then yes.

The requirement for cables that are not in one of the permitted zones (i.e. 150mm from ceiling or corner) and not in line with a visible accessory is that they are either buried at a depth of 50mm or more, or, protected by a capping that will protect the cable from likely damage (i.e. being nailed, screwed, or drilled through).

So if there is not accessory on the original vertical chase, then the whole run of cable down and across the wall should be protected.

[Martin Angove]

Don't think it's a socket - it's one of those triangular under cupboard lights, e.g. Screwfix 51054.

Hwyl!

M.

[Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)]

Nor do we. See here :

[Tim Smith]

Well the socket for the cooker hood is mounted on top of the cupboard as I previously mentioned, but the cable to it does come out of teh wall in line with the original vertical chase if this counts (ie no accessory on the vertical cahse but it is visible that the cable appears from the wall in that vertical line and from below rather than above. I guess I could always just fix the socket box to the wall in that vertical line if thats even better.

So in summary, if my statement above is acceptable and I protect the horizontal piece of wire is this OK ? What can be done about the junction box at the original socket position ?

Thanks

Tim

[John Rumm]

My interpretation is:

If you can arrange it so that the original vertical chase position is marked by some form of accessory (i.e. socket, FCU etc) then you could argue that the vertical run does not need further protection.

The horizontal bit is in line with the socket and hence is "OK" as is, with the proviso above being met (without it then then whole cable run should be protected)

The burried junction box is not acceptable though. You could dig it out. Remake the joint with crimps and an overall heatshrink overcoat though.