Keeping bees out of the loft.

[Nick Odell]

I like bees so I wouldn't want to harm them but I'd prefer they didn't nest in my loft each year: apart from anything else, they seem to be destroying the insulation material. I've seen suggestions for deterrents ranging from Mothballs to Peppermint Oil but I'm wondering what treatments have really worked for the folk on uk.d-i-y?

I can't make the loft space Bee-tight because the roof is made from old-fashioned stone slates so I'm looking for an effective aromatic repellant or something similar.

There's a socket outlet available in the loft if a vaporiser is needed.

Thanks,

Nick

[Chris Hogg]

You're sure they're bees? I ask because the way you describe them, as nesting in your loft each year, rather suggest they make a new nest every year, which is characteristic of wasps.

OTOH, if it's just a single nest that becomes active from spring to autumn, it may well be bees. It's just that bees tend to stay inside their nest during cold winter months, feeding on the honey they've stored away over the summer, and you won't see much activity in the winter - maybe the occasional bee, and on mild days some will come out to 'clear their bowels' of pollen residues etc (all over SWMBO's nice clean laundry!).

If you're sure they're bees, contact your local beekeeping organisation (Google for the one in your county), and ask for their advice, and even ask if they could come and remove the nest completely

- they have ways and means and experience.

[Tim Streater]

Yes, sounds more like wasps than bees. Wasps (except the queens) all die at the end of summer when the food runs out. The nest left behind is not reused the next year.

Suggest that firstly you confirm what they really are. If wasps, get a pest control person in. Also go up into your loft during the dead of winter and look for queen wasps. A 60W tungsten bulb will provide enough heat/light to wake them up, then dispatch them while still drowsy (them being drowsy, not you).

If they are in fact bees then follow Chris Hogg's advice.

[Steve Walker]

Vaporising them may be going a bit far ;)

[newshound]

As a matter of interest, what's the insulation material? I'm not aware of anything that bees or wasps would normally interfere with. (Rats and mice will chew polystyrene).

[Nick Odell]

I'm certain that they are bees. There have been dead bodies amongst the debris that I cleaned out in the autumn. They seem to be one of the smaller variety of bumble bees which don't overwinter and select new nesting sites in the spring.

I'd prefer that they built their nest elsewhere, rather than somebody comes to remove them. If they get as far as building their nest the (potential) damage to the insulation has already been done.

Nick

[Nick Odell]

I think they are bundles of glass wool suspended between the rafters. One of the old nests seemed to have been built within/from the fibres and it is so matted together that I couldn't remove it without taking chunks of insulating fibre away with it. The others are the usual chewed leafmould/paper constructions on the loft floor, near the eaves.

I only discovered them last summer when there was a lot of bee activity around there: I think they've been coming in year after year and not that I just had one huge invasion for the first time last year.

Nick

[Theo]

Possibly tree bumblebees, which like rockwool:

Apparently they don't reuse nests, but it is possible they come again because the place is attractive to build a new nest. So there are just the queens dormant in the nest at this time of year, and in a month or so they fly off to find a new nest.

Have you thought about doing something to the rockwool to make it less attractive? The encapsulated rockwool inside plastic film, for example?

Theo

[Chris Hogg]

If they are bumble bees, then they have a similar life cycle to wasps, i.e. only the queens survive the winter, as you say. I am a little surprised that they should keep coming back every year. Bumbles make small disorganised nests compared to honey bees, with maybe a few hundred bees at any one time, unlike honey bees that make very well organised combs and may contain up to fifty thousand bees at the peak.

Is there evidence of the old nests; little groups of randomly arranged empty wax comb, for example? Does it contain chewed insulation? Are the bees actually responsible for the damage?

As for removing or deterring them, I'm not sure a beekeeper would be much help after all. They can deal with honey bees, but the nature of bumbles makes moving them without destroying them somewhat problematic.

[newshound]

Fascinating, havn't come across their nests before (but I may well have seen them foraging).

[Nick Odell]

I don't know that the same bees keep coming back: I should have thought, considering their lifestyle, that random scouts find the roof and think "that looks good, let's camp here."

The stuff on the loft floor just seemed like normal bee papier-mache. The stuff in the insulation is a semi-hard, semi-gooey, semi-bits-of-bee mess which would pull out bundles of insulation if I tried to tear it away so I sprayed the area with pesticide after I was sure the bees had gone - though I think that was actually a nest from earlier times.

...which is why I'm looking for a deterrent.

Nick

[John J]

It would be waste of time asking a beekeeper to remove them as they only deal with honeybees not solitary bees, bumble bees, wasps or hornets. Honeybees build combs of beeswax not paper. Identification of the species you are dealing with is easy if you look at the bumblebee trust website. Also on the basis know your enemy there is a lot of information about wasps on the Waspbane website Bumblebees in a loft would most likely be tree bumbles bombus hypnorum. They won't bother you unless you upset them. Large paper nests suggests wasps or hornets. Best left alone unless you have appropriate PPE (beesuit and veil) or a high tolerance of pain. Shop bought wasp killer is pretty feeble stuff but professional pest controllers have access to stronger stuff such as ficam-w or digrain. There are repellant compounds for use with honeybees such as bee-quick (tm) available from beekeeping suppliers such as Thornes but I've no idea how long they remain effective after application. Indiscriminate use of poisons/insecticides risks unwanted effect on non target species. Most of the paper nest stripeys only colonize a site for one season then the colony dies out and queens hibernate somewhere sheltered over winter before emerging in the spring and starting up a new nest.

[Nick Odell]

Thanks for that, John.

I can only say again that I absolutely do not want to harm them just that, for the sake of my roof space and insulation, I'd like them please to nest elsewhere. One year they found a nice, cosy space between the stones in my garden wall and that was absolutely fine by me. I'll see what more I can find out about that deterrent. Any further deterrent suggestions still welcome!

Nick

[Chris Hogg]

One last thought. You can get insect repellents for personal use repelling midges, mosquitoes and other insects in jungly places and elsewhere. Some are natural oils, others are synthetic (I use Deet to deter horseflies when out walking on moorland in the summer), but how long they last before you have to re-spray, I don't know. Many advertised here.

Even smelly old creosote or its modern version may work, but it may permeate through the house.

But I'd avoid any with a lemon smell. When honeybees swarm, and then find a suitable place to make a new colony (hollow tree or whatever), some bees will gather at the entrance and give off a strong lemon scent, to attract the others (Google for Nasonov gland for more info). Whether bumbles do it, I don't know, but I suppose it's possible, and even if they don't, you may end up with a loft full of honeybees!.

[Rex Jones]

None even last a day. Havent tried the powered insect repellers tho.

[charles]

In the days I smoked a pipe, I found tobacco smoke kept the midges away.

[Nick Odell]

Thanks for the tip! I'll avoid the lemon, then!

I mentioned at the top of the thread that people on the internet suggest all sorts of aromas ranging from peppermint to mothballs so I am hoping that a real uk.d-i-y person rather than some anonymous blogger will say "I used 'x' and it worked.

Nick

[Nick Odell]

I believe that beekeepers used to use that too. Might be a tad tricky keeping a Churchwarden or a Bent Bulldog on the go up there...

Nick

[Bob Eager]

My wife found that, too (she was the pipe smoker).