Is room big enough for ensuite shower/WC?

[backy]

Are there any rules (regs or of thumb) about how big a bedroom needs to be before I can add an ensuite? I have a four bed house with only one bathroom. There is no room downstairs for a cloakroom but an ideal place is in the spare room which is next to/slightly above the bathroom. Trouble is, the room is only 11 x 11 feet. How small can the ensuite bit be? I imagine I'd also have to move my cold water tank to the main loft above the spare room as current (tiny) tank is in a small loft which is level with the floor of the spare room. With only one kid we don't mind having just one WC but local estate agents scream in horror that we don't have at least a cloakroom downstairs and say we will be down thousands compared with other houses that do - that's if we can even sell it with such woeful facilities etc. Thanks.

[John Rumm]

You could squeeze a shower, loo and sink into 6'x5' easy enough and still have a workable room. That would still leave you a reasonable "double" bedroom in Estate Agent speak.

[Christian McArdle]

I'm think about this for my loft conversion. To save space by not requiring circulating space in the en-suite, I'm thinking of having the shower cubicle open straight into the bedroom, using a standard internal door. Then I just need a tiny toilet cubicle. The shower will get the apex space, with the toilet where the roof is coming down.

I'll need about 90cm x 90cm for the shower and about 90cm x 1.5m for the toilet, with walls about 10cm thick. Together that makes about 2.6m x 1.0m or 8'6" x 3'3".

Note that if you are doing this for resale value reasons, the en-suite must open onto the master bedroom. No-one wants to buy a house where the box room has its own facilities, whilst the lord and lady must queue it with the sprogs.

Christian.

[Tim Smith]

We are also comtemplating trying to put an on-suite into the master bedroom. One initial query I had was what ways are there to overcome that the en-suite wouldnt be anywhere near the existing soil pipe ?

Tim

[Christian McArdle]

Either install a closer soil pipe, or install a macerator pump. These have a poor reputation, but actually they're fine if you obey a few rules:

1. The ONLY things that go down it are wet and yellow, soft and brown and soft toilet paper.
2. For extra reliability, ban the soft and brown.
3. Use soft toilet paper. Flush halfway through wiping if much has been used.
4. No children. They only have to look at one to block it, particularly using methods (1) and (3).
5. No guests. You simply can't trust them to follow the rules, particularly (1) and (6).
6. No vampire's teabags.
7. You block it, you unblock it (required to enforce 6).
8. All blockages once removed to be displayed publicly and sold on eBay (required to enforce 6)

If you do the above, they'll provide years of reliable service.

Christian.

[Vaci]

Alternatively, just disregard everything the estate agent says, and put it on the market just as it is. They'll tell you anything to get you to put it on the market at a fire-sale price.

You might find a DIY-mad buyer who would get excited about doing all that work themselves anyway :)

[Lobster]

Are you talking about being far from the existing vertical soil stack on the outside of the house?

If that's what you mean, you can run quite a long, sloping soil pipe along the outside of the house, from where it emerges from the wall behind the loo, running all the way to the soil stack.

No idea what your 'geometry' is, but other possible food for thought is having a full-size soil pipe running under the floor, above the ceiling, parallel (only) to the joists? Providing there's enough depth on the joists, and fall on the pipe.

David

[Owain]

Quite small, but if you are taking away from the smallest bedroom you will end up with a very small bedroom. I don't think there are any rules regarding minimum room sizes, but you might have to be able to demonstrate to building control that the resulting bedroom is still (just about) adequate to hold (single) bed and chest of drawers. And an en-suite from a small bedroom will not appeal as much as one off the master bedroom.

Sometimes a little lateral thought can work -- could you steal space from *one* bedroom to provide an en-suite for *another* bedroom. That can sometimes help even things out where one bedroom bigger/smaller than the others.

You could use an instant electric shower and a small under-sink water heater, both off the cold mains. I know a lot of people don't like electric showers, but for an en-suite is't probably acceptable. You can always have a power shower in the 'family bathroom'

One bathroom per 3 bedrooms is the "usual" general rule, and a loo on every floor.

Are you sure you can't get a WC in the understairs cupboard? That would give you a 2nd (and ground floor) loo, which *will* appeal to not just young families, but anyone who doesn't want visitors traipsing around upstairs. You could then just have a shower cubicle opening directly off the bedroom. Do you have a cylinder/airing cupboard which could turn into a shower room? if the cylinder was moved (combi boiler or, in a 4 bed house, probably better to go mains pressure with a cylinder in the loft).

Owain

[Tim Smith]

The existing soil pipe is actually in the garage which is the lower storey of a two storey extension built on the side of the house. The location for any addtional toilet would be right on the other side of the house.

Just to add to the fun, if we did consider trying to run it between ceiling and floor, the joists would actually be perpendicular to the run of the pipe so thats a non-starter too.

Tim

[Lobster]

Attach it across the garage ceiling, if you've the headroom maybe? Or run it round the periphery of the walls, just below ceiling level? 'Er indoors doesn't normally like that sort of thing in the parlour as it interfere's with the decor, but the garage is a Man's Place where you're able to fit surface-mounted soil pipe where you want!

I've fitted one before (well OK, designed and supervised!) where the soil pipe ran the whole length of a room, inside boxing a ceiling level, so surely it shouldn't be a big issue for the garage.

David

[Doctor Evil]

The soil pipe is on the other side of the house. The only way is to dig up and run a branch from the local manhole. There should be one as there is an extension.

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[Capitol]

If you are using a quadrant shower cubicle, the the toilet can go into

0.55 x 1.5M without difficulty plus a bit of dripping/drying space around the shower. Using bifold doors could let you keep it as one area and you gain the wall thicknesses.

To the OP

As Owain has said, working between two rooms can be very advantageous and remember that bathrooms do not have to be rectangular. tricks like angling doors at 45degrees can often make all the difference.

Regards Capitol

[backy]

Thanks for your help. I've had a builder round who reckons for 3 grand (!!) I can nick a bit of the kitchen to put in a wc accessed from the cellar door in the hall. I could then put in a vanity unit in the spare room (do people like these?). As a potential modern day purchaser would this arrangement satisfy your ablutionary needs???

[Owain]

Okay if that doesn't wreck the proportions of the kitchen, which is very important to buyers.

Personally I think sinks in bedrooms are redolent of 1970s B&Bs. They might appeal more to women for removing make-up etc than to a man. I would prefer to see a sink as part of a thought-out wardrobe and dressing counter suite than a standalone vanity unit. But that's only me.

Owain

[Anna Kettle]

I've always thought they must appeal to men more than to women cos when I wake up in the middle of the night needing a pee ...

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____|

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[jacob]

I've just squoze a shower,wc,whb, into 7'x4' - plenty of room, including 800x1200 shower tray. Could be smaller with smaller shower, small basin and if necessary have door opening outwards. Or just have shower cubicle and hand basin in the room and pass on the wc.

cheers

Jacob

[Bob Mannix]

Sticking with imperial measurments (as the OP), my whole family bathroom is

5' 2" x 5' 6", so it must be possible! That has a bath, basin, toilet, radiator, power shower, wall cupboard, mirror, shaver light, extract fan, window and a (full size) door that opens in. Only compromises are length of bath (5', obviously!) and I have to have a shower curtain rather than a solid screen (and it's definitely one person at a time!). Also it was necessary to make my own bath panel to allow a door to a storage area under the back of the bath. There are four of us, including boys of 14 & 12 and STILL no-one uses the shower room dowmstairs (lovingly installed by yours truly) with its instantaneous electric shower unless they really have to.