Internal glass door building regs?

[mogga]

Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.

[dennis]

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass. You do not want to be able to kill yourself or anyone else.

[mogga]

Well quite - he wants to know if he can legally get the landlord to do it.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g. leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling through and being literally cut to ribbons.

Your local glazier will be able to advise on correct thickness and standards.

[mogga]

[Man at B&Q]

I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.

MBQ

[The Medway Handyman]

My local glass place has a big chart on the wall showing exactly what you can use & where.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

Regs are online anyway. And frankly, regs or not, having been absoulutely shocked at the fragility of horticutaral glass, and the lethality of what it leaves behind, I would not consider it in a house except in small leaded lights.

[Andy Dingley]

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!

Although it's still (AFAIK) UK-legal, wired "safety" glass is a bad idea. It has some use for fire resistance, but it's far from safe against impact. It's slightly more resistant to falling right through it than simple glass, but the injuries from such an accident can be far _worse_ than plain glass. It's not only sharp, the broken wire ends act as hooks.

Wired glass is also no use for extra security. A good kick goes through it. If you need mesh over glass, add separate steel mesh.

[dennis]

Wired glass is *not* safety glass! It is wired to stop it falling out of fire doors and that is the only place it should be used. If you need to stop someone falling through you have to use laminated or better some railings. To stop serious injury toughened should be OK.

[Tim S]

Andy Dingley coughed up some electrons that declared:

I assume he meant "toughened" as opposed to "annealed" which is what a lot of the bog standard stuff is.

For whoever raised the question in the first place:

I've had recent long and interesting discussions with various glaziers regarding annealed vs toughened DG panels.

The general outcome was:

Toughened is expensive (about 40% more expensive than annealed) if you need lots of it. But for one of two bits it doesn't make enough difference to argue about and safety should win out.

Toughened is a little bit more resistant than annealed at resisting breakages, but is by no means unbreakable. What it does do is break into lots of tiny pieces that tend not to stab you to death on the way through.

However, burglars (allegedly) prefer toughened to annealed. Annealed glass in large panes makes lots of noise when it's broken. Toughened can be set of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for other things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

Laminated is much more difficult to break through, but impractical for my DG units.

However, if the build regs state toughened (or safety) glass for a particular scenario, one must comply.

In my case, I'll probably use annealed for my windows, but toughened for the kid's bedrooms where double-bunk beds may offer a chance of falling against a window. Obviously I need to use toughened for any low panels in doors too - I need to check the regs...

Cheers Tim

[Tim S]

dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:

Indeed, I've seen someone stick a foot through it whilst p***ed. They were wearing trainers, not boots.

This is an important point I forgot to mention ^^^.

Cheers

Tim

[Huge]

What he said. About 10 years ago, my Mother fell through a secondary double glazing panel fitted to a wooden French door in our lounge - fortunately, she grabbed the couch as she fell and went through it backwards and only ended up needing about a dozen stitches in a place more embarrassing than significant. But I was appalled at the fact that the panel wasn't toughened glass (we didn't fit it) and that it broke into "spears" - had she gone through it forwards with arms outstretched I think the chances are it would have killed her.

We threw away all the similar panels shortly thereafter.

[Phil L]

Glass used in wondows which are less than a certain distance from the floor (about 1m I think) have to be toughened - above that and normal glass can be used.

ALL glass in doors, and in windows which are attached to doors, IE like in a combination frame, have to be toughened glass, irrespective of distance from the floor.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No, I think that safety=toughened mostly.

The sort that turns into pellets, rather than shards: and takes a lot more to break.

Laminated is another option that is maybe even better, but I don't think its required by the regs.

[Peter Parry]

It works very well. It also works with double glazed units which are notoriously difficult to break. Which is why it is a good idea to keep such a punch in a clip by any double glazed upstairs window you might want to get out of in case of a fire in the house. Throwing chairs, the dog, toys etc against a DG window will rarely break it, the air gap acts as a cushion.

[Invisible Man]

Years ago whole glass doors had to be toughened but not doors with separate upper and lower dg units. Whole council estates were being fitted with non toughened so that when someone fell down the stairs they went straight through the bottom panel of the front door. Nasty.

I used to have a house with only fanlights in the bedrooms. Kept a heavy hammer in one and an axe in the other. Best to go for a corner I believe so that air cushioning is not so pronounced.

[Kevin Poole]

Agreed absolutely. I'd just add that for maximum effectiveness, probably of an automatic centre punch, certainly of one of those dinky little toffee hammers with a pointed end, use it as close as possible to a corner, or at least an edge.

Now you know what to do when you're next in a train crash.

[The Medway Handyman]

I believe that the scumbags who break into cars use a spark plug to shatter the side windows.

No personal experience.

[A.Lee]

I dont think that is correct. My glazier says it can be either toughened, or laminated. Laminated is around a third cheaper, albeit at the expense of a thicker glass section. He also puts the BS mark on his laminated glass. Alan.