How have the mighty fallen? OT.

[Alan Holmes]

Well Mary did!

So it isn't something to put on a cut?

I think you had better put me in the picture!

Alan

[Alan Holmes]

I have to take my hat off to you, you NEVER EVER make a spelling error?

And the help you get comes from the NHS, and is obviously satisfactory?

Alan

[Alan Holmes]

And mine, or I shall report you to Alan Hall, and you wouldn't want that now, would you?

Alan (Holmes)

[Alan Holmes]

To, to return the poisinous fumes, and from, for the useful stuff.

Alan

[Kev Crocombe]

Well - that has not been my experience, as I said. But no organisation that covers an entire country will have a uniform quality of delivery, and that is true of private or public sector, it will depend on the staff employed at each point and the quality of their management.

I don't see what is "morally bankrupt" about not making a profit for big companies, or for that matter, feeling that you're inclined to give more into your job because you think it worth while. I work in the public sector myself and give more of my time than I would otherwise because I believe it is a "good thing" - I'm certainly not bullied into giving my time or effort, and certainly in some private companies I've worked for, it was "expected" that you would work unpaid overtime as required.

Yes it is expensive and will only become more so, as more and more treatments become available. It is though, much MUCH cheaper than a system like that in the US, and you don't seem to have addressed that point at all.

OK - tell me about them.

So you think by having some mish mash of 1000s of tiny providers, this will give a better service? I don't think so. Like education - the only choice that most people want is that the local hospital or school gives a decent quality of service.

I thought your point was about the state delivering a service, not about lack of supervision, which could happen in any organisation. I note that you don't try and deny that privatised cleaning services just don't work. Dear God, I never thought that I'd look back on British Rail with affection, but after the debacle of multiple providers - it seems like a golden age - and this is is the model for your brave new world?

We will have to agree to differ then - because I think we get a great deal for what we pay - taint perfect, but nothing is. I for one would be willing to pay more for a better service - but I don't believe that there is the political will to do it.

[Andy Hall]

I think that you're getting confused with the National Lottery, aka taxation for the gullible.

[Andy Hall]

.. and the point is....??

Read the original part of the thread, snipped out above, applied in the context of the NHS.

Let me say it a different way - use of aspirin to fix a broken leg.

In other words, to be completely specific and clear.....

The continuing use of inadequate and inappropriate fixes.

[Andy Hall]

Of course I do, but not of that word.

A minimal amount of the help does. I would not for an instant

*depend* on the NHS or for that matter any doctor for any of this.

- An inadequate for purpose quantity of test materials are supplied by them. Not good enough.

- I have to insist that certain periodic tests are carried out, that are part of the NICE guidelines, but that would not be done otherwise.

- I have to push the GP surgery to supply the detailed results that I require. Being told "OK" is not acceptable to me.

- The GP is quite reasonable and actually supportive of my efforts to manage my own healthcare with him in the role of trusted advisor. However, we have had numerous conversations about what are clinically sensible and advisable targets for various parameters for me. These are at wide variance with those set by the NHS and for which points and bonuses are awarded to GPs. He bemoans the fact that the whole thing has become so politicised and that he has to toe the government line which he knows is not in the best interests of his patients. Given an appropriate opportunity, he and his colleagues in the practice would resign from NHS work tomorrow. Indications are that there would be a lot of local support for primary healthcare operated outside of the NHS.

Equally, most patients are at fault. They expect the doctor to give them a little white pill that they can take every day, paid for by the NHS and which will fix their ills without their having to do anything themselves. To me this is the inevitable outcome of the welfare state and socialised delivery of medicine.

>

[Andy Hall]

It is something that the government has been attempting to stick on all the broken parts of the NHS for over 50 years when really, the correct treatment is euthanasia.

[Andy Hall]

I have done and continue to do so.

How many times have you written to your MP, or the minister for health, the executive of your local PCT, ......

THat's just one example.

[Andy Hall]

I gave you several personal anecdotes and can add plenty of others from personal experience and from people I know.

Who said anything about private companies?

Yes, and also for treatment that was not supplied in an efficient and timely way.

Yes.

No. But probably only because I am fortunate not to have had a roadside accident.

There's no rubbish apart from the appalling service and attitudes in NHS facilities.

Council services would be another of my targets. At least with gas and electricity there is a degree of choice.

[Frank Erskine]

Not really, Andy. Both gas and electricity are brought to you by the same "suppliers", whoever you actually send your money to. If a supply fails, or I have a problem such as fluctuating 'leccy voltage, I still have to contact the "default" supplier (who isn't the company with whom I have a contract). The supplier is really a contractor to my "retailer", yet my retailer isn't interested if I have a supply problem.

[Andy Hall]

I'm not shouting. See earlier post.

What have you done about it in the last three months?

[Andy Hall]

See earlier post where I spell it out....

[Andy Hall]

Gordon Brown you mean....

This is why accountability is needed and why the customers, not the incompetent managers need to be effectively in control of whether or not the money comes in.

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[Andy Hall]

You tell me....

[Andy Hall]

I don't disagree with you, Frank. As you say, the choice is between retailers, although that is influenced by their administrative efficiency and how good they are at trading energy in the markets.

That's why I said "degree of choice" meaning the ability to match a tariff to pattern of use, but realising that it's not a lot more.

[Alan Holmes]

I'm just confused about your sniping which has removed whatever I was referring to, making the post unintelligable!

Alan

[Andy Hall]

Sniping?

Do you think that I am on a roof in Whitehall, ready to pick off the minister of health?

[Kev Crocombe]

That would be nice but many jobs are not open to easily counted outcomes, as this Govt has found when it gets too interested in "targets". What is an incentive in one direction is often a disincentive in some other unexpected way.

You have obviously never driven a car with a woman sitting next to you in the latter stages of giving birth! :)

Well - by the same thoughts - there are private hospitals - but we were talking about state provision.

Thats all very well until its your child who doesn't get into grammar school, and has to attend the "sink" school. There's nothing socialist or even left wing in wanting your kid to have the best education they can. I passed the 11+, but plenty of my friends didn't - and had their lives blighted by the result - and many of them were just as clever as me - just had a bad day, or didn't like tests, or got nervous - its no way to carry on. Similarly - letting "bad" hospitals get worse, is all very well until you are in them and need them to patch you up.

And what on earth is that supposed to mean? I've worked in private and public sectors and seen plenty of atrocious, empty headed, buck passing managers in both - you only have to look back a few years to the .com bubble to see how stupid and venally greedy people can be - its simply not true that the private sector is wonderfully well run, and its not true that in the private sector badly performing managers are ousted in a flurry of board driven excellence.

It saddens me to have to argue the toss like this - its this sort of mealy mouthed neo-con talk that is choking out the things that make this country a civilised place to live in. Lets get onto the BBC next. :)