House survey advice

[Nick Atty]

I've always assumed it was a nice little stitch-up between the lender and the "surveyor"

I assume that the way it works is that the "surveyor" walks round and notes "does it have gas", "does it have a flat roof" etc. He then returns to his office and ticks the boxes on a little program that spits out the relevant paragraphs saying "this house has a gas fire - get an expert in", "this house has walls, get a damp proofing expert in".

When I bought this house he looked in the roof and saw it had a steel frame[*]. Utter and complete panic. Obviously things like this aren't covered in Sams teach yourself house surveying in 24 hours.

Se we called in a structural engineer. He charged less than the building society endorsed scam merchant, said positive things about things that the computer had been negative about (condition of the masonry for the date etc), and - most importantly - spotted the only thing that has actually gone wrong since we moved in 7 years ago, and which the "surveyor" had failed to spot: that there was no lintel over the garage window (the two layers of bricks above have since dropped and I must get round to replacing them).

I can only assume, as I said above, that 50% of the profit gets given back to the lenders.

If I ever move again, I'm going straight for the structural engineer and hang the rest of them.

[*] - to be fair it is an odd building - the walls consist of a single brick outer leaf, then a cavity, and then a 9" inner leaf. Lovely and soundproof, and lots of space to put junk on the window ledges.

[Mike]

Just got the survey done for a house I'm planning to buy and it mentions a couple of points under necessary work which I'm hoping for advice on. It's a terraced house built in the 1880's BTW.

1st was the wall ties need checking and replacing if necessary on the back of the house. Is this a majorly expensive job and is any part of it diy-able?

2nd is the chimney breast in the front downstairs room has been removed. My solicitor is going to check if Building Regs approval was obtained but it's all plastered over so the surveyor couldn't tell if any strengthening had been put in (the seller has only been there 5 years and it was done before she moved in so she's no idea) . Unless there is I intend to ask for indemnity insurance anyway, but also thought that if I had the chimney breast removed from the upstairs bedroom, and suitably strengthened above, would this remove the possible problem with the downstairs room ?

Thanks, Mike

[Set Square]

I wasn't aware that they used cavity walls in 1880. If the walls are solid, there ain't any ties! If it *is* a cavity wall, it would need quite a lot of bricks removing - or even the outer skin taking down and re-building. I don't think I'd want to DIY it. [Unless, of course, there are any cunning techniques for tying the wall together without dismantling - which there may well be].

Yes, but there would then be nothing supporting the chimney - or is that what you mean by "suitably strengthened above"? So you'd either have to take down the chimney, assuming it still exists, or support it in some way - otherwise you've just moved the problem up a bit!

[Mike]

1880 is the surveyors estimate and he calls it 'conventional construction with external brick cavity walls' I googled wall ties and certainly some firms reckon to drill holes to check existing wall ties and if needed epoxy in replacements through the inspection holes. Wondered if anyone had experience of this, and cost, or using something like Helifix ?

What I meant was add the strengthening above the to be removed bedroom chimney breast so it would be supporting the chimney. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Thanks. Mike

[Al Reynolds]

Not really DIYable, but this turns up on almost all surveys these days. Is the wall bulging or cracking anywhere?

If I thought the house was worth it I would commission a structural engineer to report on both issues (wall ties and support of chimney). If I wasn't sure whether I wanted the house I would suggest the vendor pays for the same report, and walk away if they refuse.

Al

[Al Reynolds]

I found the same site when panicking about the same thing when we were buying our current house. They're a bit like damp proofing people. Forgot to say before - if they don't have cavity wall insulation and you can get up in the loft, you can sometimes look down the cavity with a mirror and a torch and see what the ties look like. If they are rusted, they will look fat and bulgy in places.

Al

[Mike]

'evidence of some irregularity in the face of the brickwork' were the surveyors words, I didn't notice anything when I inspected it but then I'm not an expert :-D

I just thought there may be a way round the chimney issue

Thanks, Mike

[Dave Plowman (News)]

An 1880 construction 9" wall doesn't have ties - or really cavity walls, although there is a small gap between the stretcher bricks. Header bricks

- those end on in the wall - tie the two together.

I'd find a new surveyor.

[chris French]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

While a solid wall is most likely I'd have thought, it's possible that it is a cavity wall (pretty easy enough to asertain I guess by looking at the brickwork bonding?)

But if was a cavity wall, did they use wall ties in them days - I suspect not.

I suspect there is nothing to worry about her, this is standard thing that seems to come up on all sorts of surveys nowadays. I'm not sure I particularly trust the firms that 'survey' and fix these sorts of jobs.

Hmm, I'm wondering about them as well, what level of survey was this?

[chris French]

In message , Mike writes

It's 125 year old, building get a bit irregular.....

Well, there is not great problem with the chimney stack really, as you suggest it's be possible to remove the chimney breast above, and support the stack , or just remove it. but if you want to go with your suggestion, you'd need a structural engineer to do the calcs etc. for suitable chimney stack support anyway.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Mike brought next idea :

Buildings of that age did not have a cavity walls, so no need for wall ties. I would be a more than little suspicious of the experience and qualifications of a surveyor who suggested it, if the wall is a part of the original structure.

I would suggest it is probably standard practise to question the structural soundness any such modification to the basic structure.

[<me9]

There are ties that can be inserted into a drilled hole and expanded into the brickwork. There may also be glue in (expy ones) available.

The chimney breast may be buttressing the wall. If the wall is greater than a certain length it will need piers, chimneys or attached walls to stiffen it. If you remove them it may fail. A structural report is advisable.

[Mark]

Oh yes they did But its normally only about 2ins, wall ties were never fitted originally so slight bulging is now common on flank walls due to the mortar slowly disintegrating and then filling the cavity at the bottom, leading to penetrating damp !. Its not that expensive to have stainless ties drilled and glued in place to keep surveyors and lenders happy. and make it easier to sell in future as this query will always crop up.

-

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Mike writes

Not necessarily particularly expensive. Not sure if it is diy.

Dont forget - the surveyor has not looked at the wall ties, so is not saying that they all need replacing. He is merely saying get them checked.

Dont forget - if they are checked by a firm who has a chance of getting the of replacing them, they will all need replacing! Even if there were none in the first place

Not sure you can get indemnity insurance for something which can be easily checked by lifting a few floorboards and having a look.

Seems sensible, but make sure the chimney above is supported before they start knocking out the breast.

[Mike]

Thanks for all the comments folks, seems like I should arrange for a structural engineer to check out the chimney thing, assuming that no information about it shows up on the searches. I believe that if Building Regs consent was obtained then it should show up. As for the type of survey it was a full building survey from a local (to the property) firm of chartered surveyors, I currently live 300 miles away.

Thanks, Mike

[Sam Nelson]

I take a very cynical view of the whole business of house-surveying, because as far as I can tell these people, knowing they have you over a barrel, fill surveys up with all sorts of bullshit just to look good. You have to have a survey, but the survey itself is completely useless, for the potential buyer at least. I don't know why house-surveying works this way, but I've never met anyone able or willing to have a shot at offering an alternative view.

Any surveyors out there want to challenge that view?

Surveys are full of `consult an expert in X' which makes you wonder what the surveyor is actually an expert in---other than the wearing of sharp suits and the driving of BMWs---and the potential cost of calling in all of these experts would be massive.

It's quite possible that there aren't any wall ties at all. Last survey I had done, the surveyor got the orientation of the property wrong by 170 degrees or so, and wrote that the loft was insulated to a depth of 200mm when in fact there was no loft insulation whatsoever. Whether or not you can trust any of what's written in your survey, I haven't a clue.

If you aren't desperate either for a house or for that house, walk away.

[Christian McArdle]

My mother's house has genuine cavity walls in part. In was built in the

1880s. In fact, each floor has a separate type of wall construction. It is actually reasonably well designed to reduce weight and maintain strength, whilst giving the damp proofing benefits of the cavity where it is needed, where it is close to, or in contact with, the ground.

Lower ground floor (2 brick, genuine 50mm cavity, one brick) Upper ground floor (3 brick solid)

1st floor (2 brick solid) 2nd floor (unsure, 1 or 2 brick solid).

You can see the joins in the stairway. The interior wall backs off at each floor level internally, giving either a bendy wall, or a handy shelf.

Christian.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Bare in mind that unless it was done in the last 20-30 years (not sure of exact date), no building regs approval would have been required anyway.

A chimney breast has been removed from the kitchen of my house at some point. From some coincidental information in the deeds, I can tell it was already gone some time before 1972.

[Rob Morley]

Not true in my experience - when I had a free survey (by some guy recommended by my surveyor) his report basically said "the existing ties are in good condition, but you could maybe do with a few more around the windows and doorways" - which I think roughly translates to "it doesn't really need any work, but I'll do some if you want". I suppose if I was going to replace the original windows I might have additional ties fitted, but other than that no worries.

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Rob Morley writes

There is always an exception

You got an honest guy and should keep his number somewhere safe. In 17 years of estate agency, I came across only a handful of Timber, Damp and Cavity Wall Tie firms who would actually state that little or nothing needed doing.