House-buying, probs with BWDPA report

[Velvet]

Hi all,

Well things have moved on a bit. Remember the 1930's? house with the crack in the front wall? Had the survey done, wasn't mentioned, but what was picked up was apparently woodworm in the loft (didn't see any when I looked, but still), and damp in the understairs (one external wall, solid floor) and utility room (two external walls, solid tiled floor).

Now, the mortgage co wanted a report by a BWDPA member, so had that done through the estate agent. I'd already noted potentially bridge on DPC on one external wall (concrete render to rear of drain) to the utility room, and then found the combi-boiler vent/overpressure relief pipe would vent into what some idiot thought was a drain but which is very clearly not a drain but an air-brick.

The surface of the concrete paving around the property is higher than current standards recommend, so the air brick is slightly beneath the level of the paving, the paving has a gap there, and raised brick edging to stop water sheeting straight into the airbrick.

The survey didn't pick up on either the render bridging the dpc, OR the vent pipe. I'm pretty sure the damp in teh understairs is condensation, the place having been unheated and vacant all winter (all services off/drained down). The utility room, being what it is, could be damp from long-term leak of washing machine, or the render bridging the dpc, or the airbrick/boiler vent, but none of this was picked up by the BWDPA investigation.

They reckon a full injection DPC installation, despite the fact that the other downstairs rooms have NO sign of damp whatsoever, and seal the solid floors to prevent damp rising through the floor, and also treat for woodworm just in case, ie, they've not bothered to even try and determine if it's active or long dormant.

Is this normal for a BWDPA report? Because as far as I'm concerned it smacks of cowboy practices, and I'm at the point where I'm loathe to arrange for another one to be done directly (not via estate agents) without actually being there to stand over them. Yet my mortgage company is insisting on it being a BWDPA, rather than a truly independant investigation. I can't find anyone remotely in the area who would just investigate that doesn't also treat, and thus have a vested interest in finding the need for a chemical DPC etc.

I'm confused and somewhat annoyed with the crap report I got back from the first lot of supposedly 'respectable' damp and timber experts, anyone got any recommendations? The property's not that far from wellingborough in Northants. I live a couple of hours drive away but if that's what it takes then I'm up for being there to make sure they don't just run one of those damp-meters over the walls without looking for the root cause.

Velvet

[Mike]

Of course - the report was free so how else will they pay for it.

Yaa-haw !!! (or something like that i.e. yes)

Look under "specialists" on

and see if there's one in your area. They'll be well aware of the cowboys.

As for the mortgage company, threaten to go elsewhere if they continue being silly, there's far more mortgages available than people looking for them at the moment.

[Peter Parry]

Perfectly normal.

Got it in one.

[Lobster]

Well, I agree it's a no-brainer to find someone who doesn't stand to gain from finding damp. Does the estate agent not know of anybody? The agents of course have a 'vested interest' in surveyors not finding damp, because it helps sales go through - therefore they usually tend to know of the independent timber and damp surveyors who are by definition less likely to come up with a problem.

There's an interesting uk.d-i-y thread at

(or which includes input from just such an independent Remedial Treatment Surveyor.

Unfortunately I don't think your being there would make a whole lot of difference TBH. Though I suppose you could check he doesn't short out the prongs of his meter using his fingers at the places where he wants to find damp (and yes, I know of that trick having being done)

[Velvet]

I have a feeling at least part of the problem is that the place has been unheated and unlived in over most of the winter (and currently still vacant). I can see how that'd lead to damp showing up more than in a place that'd had heating in it for the duration - but am not sure that's been made clear to the cowboys (though one would have thought any half-decent damp and timber bod would have asked).

I wasn't surprised that the 'free' one came back with that, though the estate agent was, apparently they are usually pretty good and don't do the cowboy thing - the estate agent's gut feeling was there's not a problem is just from being vacant for the winter, but obviously the est agent's not a damp and timber specialist!!!

My problem is that they were members of the BWDPA. Now, if I pay for another bunch to go do it, rather than free (which is fine) then I want a decent job done. But given the last lot were BWDPA, how can I trust those credentials?

I was looking on the BWDPA site and couldn't find any independant-of-treatment-companies types. I'll have another look tomorrow and ring round a few more. Found one on periodproperty website suggested somewhere above, but though he sounds clued up *and* is a BWDPA member, he's not local so I suspect travelling costs will push the price up loads.

Has anyone had any experience with specialistxpress.com ? They were recommended by the (slippery-as-a-weasel) surveyor that did the HBR. I'm a little wary that using them I'd not actually get to talk to the bloke doing the report before I actually shell out and book it, thus no feel for competance etc.

Ta for all the replies, much appreciated (and I know this is a done-to-death subject).

Velvet

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Velvet writes

It shouldnt be, but it might be! I dont actually know of any house where it was essential that a full DPC be fitted, but I know of thousands where a Full DPC was recommended by AN OTHER DPC Co..

You could ask them to carry out a core sample test for salts, (or whatever), but it's probably a waste of time.

Does the report cause you a financial problem? I.e. does it mean that the lender will withhold money that you need.

The reason I ask is that Damp and timber is a bit of a game played by the surveyors, the lenders and the DPC companies. Surveyors cover their arses, so the lenders have to cover their arses, and the DPC companies take advantage of it with unsuspecting house buyers. Therefore you have to play the game with them.

You seem to have a good eye for a problem, and the surveyor didnt seem overly concerned, so you probably have little to worry about.

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Velvet writes

No, but as they presumably act nationwide, they cannot possibly know every specialist that they deal with - definitely iffy, unless someone can confirm the contrary.

Why was he slippery as a weasel??

Why would he recommend a centralised website, when he should probably know the local individual specialists they would appoint?

Same here!!

[Velvet]

Yep, it potentially will - the lender wants to withold =A33000 pending 'essential repairs' - for 6 months. I've been quoted by the cowboys that full chem inject plus floor sealing plus wood treatment is of the order of =A31300 quid. No idea if replastering is included in that - no mention of that was made at all, but I do know that goes hand in hand with a chem inject, and can't see how it could be included given the work involved.

Unless there's absolutely no way around it I'm not willing to roll over and accept it, because as far as I can see sealing the floors may make what is normal into a problem, and the same for the chem inject too, and I'm not prepared to have a bunch of arse-covering cowards insisting on irreversible treatments.

Have uncovered a few people to talk to today about it, so will see what they say. One of whom will be the BWPDA (or is it BWDPA!) themselves, I'll be very interested in their reaction to this 'report'.

Ta for all the help,

Velvet

[Chris Bacon]

Timber in the loft - ask the Estate Agent whether the vendor has any guarantee from previous treatment, you never know. If you can investigate, take an electric torch up there, and shine it sideways over the holes - if you can see white, and there's any frass about, the holes are fresh, and (inexpensive) treatment is indicated - it will satisfy your lender. If there's no evidence of any fresh infestation, your report should say that, and the lender should not require treatment. If you need treatment, I should get someone else to do it, rather than DIY - for the cost, and the avoidance of a horrible procedure, it's worth it!

How much higher? Air-bricks often rest on the DPC - if this is so, you are very likely to have a considerable "bridged DPC" problem. Can you *see* the DPC? It's most likely to be a slate one, which will show as a thick joint between brick courses. If it *is* bridged, then you should dig out and put in a gravel border or similar. This has the advantage that you can DIY it and save on costs.

Solid floors? Are they all solid? How recent are they? There can be problems with installation. It may be the case that an injected DPC may be too high to be of much use - I saw a house where the DPC injection had been done some way above floor level!

It should not be normal. If it's a "free" survey theoretically the costs are recovered by the company when they *do* find work that needs doing, not necessarily on *every* surveyed property.

You really do need to be there, to chat to the surveyor, and ask questions that will influence the outcome of their report. You could mention the previous report (mention no names) and what you think of it ("the surveyor didn't see this bridging, do you think that removing it would help?" etc.). You might offer to pay something for a report!

Enough for now, come back later.

[Velvet]

Hi there chris,

No guarantee from the past - it's a repo, so no paper trail at all. Have my hands on actual report, they state no woodworm in the loft at all, let alone dormant, so they are at odds with the surveyor... I think I'd have the place treated just for the fact that doing it before I move in is going to be the only time feasible, and then I'll have the magic bit of paper with which to satisfy potential purchases in the future should I sell...

The concrete paving tends to be one brick course below the DPC - sometimes more in some areas, sometimes a little less - levels change as the property is on a very slight slope. The DPC is a felt/bitumen from the look of it, visible with a bit of looking, all around the external of the property. Air bricks sit with the DPC lying just above them. The lowest airbrick (the one the boiler would vent overpressure into) is half above, half below, the concrete paving, so three bricks on edge form a barrier to stop water sheeting into the airbrick from the path, with a concrete base to the little lower-than-path area just in front of the airbrick. Hard to describe, and no photos unfortunately.

DPC is only potentially bridged in one place, and one place only - I've followed the line of it completely. That's the concrete render to the wall, backing the kitchen sink/washing machine outlet etc - it goes up to the point of the dpc, where it's bedded in the mortar, but doesn't go across to the following brick course, so if it's bridged it's maybe

1-2mm. It definitely doesn't stop 1-2mm below the fabric of the DPC.

Plan of action was to DIY the path level, to reduce it down and replace with something a little more aesthetically pleasing at the same time. It's such a small change in level that it's definitely something I'm doing myself, and know am capable of doing.

Floors are part solid, part wooden. Wooden to front hall, livingroom, kitchen. Appears solid to understairs cupboard (concrete look), tiled quarry to side hall, unknown in downstairs WC, quarry tile to utility room. The side hall wasn't raised as damp, only the understairs cupboard and the utility room. Utility room houses boiler, lots of heating/plumbing pipework, washing machine outlet - am minded to think either flood when system was drained down in there, or leaking washing machine previous - and no heat since either to have dried it out.

Injected DPC - not sure what level it would be relative to interior flooring. I know the solid flooring tends to be a slightly lower level than the wooden flooring, there's a step down into that area of things. I've no idea if a chemical inject would actually be low enough to be any use - since the DPC rests on top of the top of the airbrick, they'd have to inject into either the course beneath the dpc, or the one above it. The one below seems pretty pointless, and the one above I'm not convinced about - as you say, may be too high based on the interior floor levels.

Interestingly the report says no evidence of hygroscopic? salts on the walls, and also says no replastering to be done at time of dpc. Apparently salts may show up as the walls dry, and then replastering would be necessary. I'd have thought if the walls were wet enough that salt formation as they dry is a risk, the original survey would have found this in ALL downstairs external walls, not just the two mentioned...

I've sent the report off to the mortgage co, after having explained my concerns and also that the BWPDA said it didn't sound up to their normal standards. It directly contradicts some of what the surveyor said in my HBR, so I'm willing to let the mortgage co have a copy of that, though they've already said they will talk to her and see if she feels the retention etc is still necessary.

I think my plan may well be to get the timber done for the bit of paper, then get in the place, sort out the boiler/poss render bridge, get it heated and ventiliated, dry it out as far as possible, and then get another report done on it. My last resort is to do what's been said, and get the injection done - but the mortgage co have said if it turns out to be unnecessary all they need is for it to be stated (by dint of re-survey) that damp is no longer a problem, and they'll be happy.

Another long day spent trying to get to the bottom of things. Didn't appreciate just how much you can learn when buying a house, it's a good job I find it interesting and am practically-minded and not afraid to question stuff and get stuck in!

Velvet

[Andrew Gabriel]

Such guarantees were often stored with the deeds. It's possible the previous owners would not even know about them unless they had lived there a long time. When I got my deeds recently, there were guarantees in there for treatments I knew nothing about which were still in force for some 15 years after I bought the house.

Woodworm can't generally live in the heated parts of the house where the timber ends up too dry (although it's normal to find old woodworm holes from before central heating was installed).

[Velvet]

I've asked the estate agents to ask the sellers several times about this, but each time I'm told they have nothing of that sort available to them.

I'll be asking again via the conveyancer, when we eventually get that bit of it moving (all on hold till the poxy mortgage company's satisfied).

I'm almost certain the place will have had a treatment at some point, since the last time the house changed hands was only a few years ago. I'm also presuming that the damp problem was in existance at that point

- and that's another reason why I suspect a chemical injection is not the solution - if it was, I would expect it to have been done at that point.

It's possible that the woodworm is a recently arrived inhabitant, given the place has been empty throughout the winter without any heating, and there will have been moisture building up internally during the last few months. With all the windows (double glazed) and doors (traditional wood but draft-proofed) shut almost constantly, little air-movement will have been going on, and there's been absolutely no heating either - the place has been vacant for just about 6 months now, from what I can tell.

Mind you, I'm not convinced what they claim is a current infestation is anything of the sort. I'd want to see it with my own eyes - and I know what old vacant woodworm holes look like, courtesy of my current place's floorboards.

I'm presuming since the deeds would be held by the mortgage company, they would have been transferred to the current sellers (a solicitors, unsure if they bought the place at auction or if they are acting on behalf of the previous mortgage co) - but I suppose it's possible I may not find out what else is in there till completion?

I'm trying for an overlap so I don't have to move in straight away, so that'd be the ideal time to have timber treated if needed, before the furniture and pets have to be moved in, so it can air out thoroughly - but that might lead to finding out it was unneeded if there is a certificate with the deeds for a prior treatment.

Although it'd be nice to not duplicate treatment, and thus save some money, it's really the damp issue that's of more concern - doing a chemical injection course isn't reversible, whereas doubling up on woodworm treatment's not really so much of a problem. I'm very wary of what may be an unnecessary change to the building's fabric, especially if it isn't fixing the root cause of the problem.

[Lobster]

I think most houses I've owned have come with a guarantee of some form (ie DPC/timber etc); and in every case these have been totally worthless because the firms concerned have gone out of business. (Oh, I tell a lie - there was one firm which was still around, but when I called them out under the guarantee, they wriggled out of liability for some reason I can't recall, which is what always happens anyway).

So I'm just wondering - do lenders accept the mere existence of a paper guarantee as having any significance at all? ie, is it actually worth Velvet coughing up for one just on the off chance it might keep some future buyer's lender happy?

[Andrew Gabriel]

My solicitor claimed to have contacted all the companies and checked they still existed at the time and were still honouring the guarantees. However, my building society didn't place any conditions on the mortgage (even though their surveyor suggested to them they should, which I also only discovered when I got the deeds). Note this is 20 years ago though.

[RichardS]

It will probably depend upon the housing market conditions current at the time, along with the percentage value being borrowed on the mortgage.

When the housing market looks a little shakey and the percentage being borrowed is high (90%+) they might impose all sorts of conditions because anything that detracts from the value or makes the place more difficult to sell will affect their ability to reclaim the debt should all go wrong.

On the other hand, if you're only borrowing 50% of the value, it shouldn't matter a jot to them 'cos damp is unlikely to wipe off 50% of the value of the house, but then you've got a lot of power to shop around for mortgages...

[Chris Bacon]

Seems reasonable... it does pong a bit when it's done, and the piece of paper is handy. Odd that there's *no* woodworm in the loft! Perhaps it's been done every 10 years since 19??

It's a bit low considering there's a hard surface nest to the brickwork. Did you say solid walls? Are all airbricks venting, or has concrete been installed without pipework?

That doesn't sount like a problem - however, is the render in good condition, no cracks, not "hollow"? You can get all sorts of problems with it - I've seen earth taken up behind hollow render by insects, especially ants.

Time for a skip. Good idea to use (path) edging and 6-9" of gravel betreen it & the wall. You may possibly find you need to do some re-pointing below the current path level, 1:1:6 is your mix.

Um. That is of some interest. It's worth a close look at the floor. I have seen quarry tiled floors made like this:

######## ######## ########---------- --- = quarry tiles out ########XXXXXXXXXX XXX = mortar side ########********** *** = ballast ========********** ########********** ########********** ########@@@@@@@@@@ @@@ = subsoil ##########@@@@@@@@@ ############@@@@@@@@

This gives an instant damp bridge on the inside.

The thing to avoid is an installer drilling through the existing DPC.

That'll get 'em going. Good that they'll talk to you.

Sounds good, living in a place will help a lot.

It's an interesting experience - you'll be able to look at other houses armed with a good deal of knowledge.