help with wiring regs - dispute with land lord

[Duncan]

The electric hob in my rented flat burned out when no-one was there, producing smoke from inside the hob, melting the control knobs and blowing a fuse at the consumer unit. The cleaner had cleaned the hob earlier in the day and is sure that it was switched off. He was also the first person back in the flat and he cut the cable to the hob and replaced the fuse. As it is unclear what caused the fire, I (tenant) agreed to replace the hob at my own expense. But I refused to connect it because I believe the wiring is not safe, based on my recent research prior to having a hob installed in my own property. I had an electrician inspect the landlord's wiring and comfirm in writing that it is sub-standard. I've sent this to the landlord who is still refusing to upgrade the wiring.

I need some advise.

This is what I found.

A 2.5mm^2 cable into a standard double socket lying on the floor under the oven. A 2.5mm^2 cable wired into this outlet supplying the old hob (cut by cleaner). The oven was plugged into the one of teh sockets with a 13A plug. The oven is rated at 2400W and the new hob (which looks just like the old hob) is 5kW. The rating sticker on the old hob was melted by the fire. There is no isolator switch and the electrician said that the supply was a spur from the ring main.

I have a copy of the brown on site guide and I can find places in the guide where the wiring doesn't meet recommendations. But is the wiring actually illegal, and can I make the landlord fix it? Specific refs to the onsite guide might help my case.

Another question, and less important, but could the wiring have caused or contributed to the failure of the hob itself? The electrician thought so, but I don't see why.

many thanks, Duncan

[Owain]

The wiring does not have to comply with current IEE regulations[1] but it has to be safe - the landlord has a duty of care to the tenant. The two main areas of concern would be:

1. The rating of a supply derived from a spur from a ring
2. Lack of isolation

Both of those have immediate fire safety implications and would make it unsafe to connect a cooker IMHO.

An electrician's report that the wiring is *unsafe* such that he cannot connect the cooker (rather than merely substandard) would appear to be fairly conclusive that remedial work needs to be undertaken. The landlord might argue that such work has only arisen because the cooker has needed to be replaced.

You can't live in a house without a cooker, so if the landlord won't agree you can:

1. do the repairs with his consent and pay the bill yourself
2. as 1, then sue the landlord through small claims. Do NOT withhold your rent as that gives the landlord grounds for eviction
3. Get the Environmental Health or Housing (depends on how your council is organised) to get the house declared unfit for habitation

Owain

[1] Except possibly in the case of a licensed HMO

[meow2222]

I dont see why, the landlord is normally responsible for that

sub- which standard? A common mistake is to imagine existing wiring must meet the latest regs - sparks like to push this view because they want work.

ok if the hob is rated at The oven was plugged into the one of teh sockets

thats normal

then you wont be able to put the new hob on a plug - looks like someone bought the wrong type.

precisely

What you may be able to do is get him to replace the hob. Thats it.

not really

No

then he either doesnt have much clue, or is happy to talk sht to get more work.

NT

[Mogga]

Why did you agree to pay for it? Does your cleaner not have insurance?

If you've got to replace the hob why not buy one of those ones you can just plug in and take it with you when you move?

[Duncan]

The spark (from Mr Electric, a nationwide franchise) said the wiring supplying the cooker was sub-standard (didn't cite which standard) and he couldn't connect my new hob because:

1=2E it was on a spur from the main ring 2=2E there is no isolator switch 3=2E cable of insufficient cross-sectional area

The hob that burnt out was rated at 5.703 kW (careful scrutiny of burnt label). It's a Hygena APM1220. So the existing wiring was inadequate even for the old hob.

With hindsight, I shouldn't have offered to pay for the replacement. The contract says that I'm responsible for maintaining the interior of the flat, and it just didn't seem to be worth the hassle of arguing for the sake of the =A389 I could spend on a replacement hob from B+Q. But I hadn't looked at the wiring then. So should I pay for the new wiring required to put in a the new hob, or should the landlord? Seems obvious to me it should be the landlord. But he insists the existiong wiring is fine. "Bob did it and he did the wiring for the hobs in all the other flats and they haven't had any problems..."

So I need to convince the landlord that the wiring is not, in fact, fine.

Duncan

[John Rumm]

Not sure I would have done that, since of all the places you could attribute blame, you seem least culpable. Even if you have left it turned on, it should not have caused it any damage.

Well that does not meet today's standards on a number of counts. In fact I doubt it ever did. However it is worth looking at the detail to see if there is an immediate risk:

The oven plugging into the socket is fine. The one double socket on a spur from the ring is fine.

However a 5kW point load on the ring from the hob is not desirable. It may or may not be dangerous (the ring is designed to supply up to 7.6 kW of power in total, but the design expects the load to be distributed around the ring). Being a domestic premises you are also allowed to apply diversity to the cooker load since the chances of it ever drawing full load (at least for a prolonged time) is minimal. In this case if you take peak load as 2400 + 5000 = 7400, that's a current draw of say

31A (a little more than the maximum capacity of the 2.5mm^2 cable). Applying diversity you get 10 + 30% of 21 = that would bring the total load down to about 16.3A. Even so, this is the sort of load that ought to be on a dedicated radial. With things as they stand it would be easy to overload the ring with other appliances. If the ring in question also feeds the kitchen with things like washing machines and other high current using appliances in it then the circuit provision is inadequate for its intended usage.

If the hob and oven were in the middle of the cable run then used by itself it ought not cause any cable damage, even when you add the oven load to it. If the spur was close to one end of the ring however then it may damage one of the cables.

There should also be an isolator within 2m of the hob (being fixed equipment).

I have a feeling the landlord ought to have an inspection certificate for the wiring - although this may only need to be a visual inspection cert.

Possibly, although relatively unlikely. At full load you may have been getting localised heating at the point the hob joined the cable. Over time that could damage insulation in the hob, which in turn could cause the meltdown. Water getting into the electrics as a result of cleaning seems more likely though.

[meow2222]

then you lack anything of use to move you to your goal..

Or to look at it another way, it was the wrong type of hob.

But none of that caused the fault.

What you need is not new wiring but a new hob that limits itself to

13A, and is designed to go on amains plug.

No, you need to undrstand whats going on so you can move toward a solution. If you exchange your new hob for a 13A one, there will be no further problem.

NT

[Dan]

Really ? It switched itself on? I would contact the manufacturer.

He probably knocked it whilst cleaning and will not admit it. He would have said if YOU had left it on.

Why on earth would a cleaner do that? If he is there to clean why is he messing about cutting cables?

You don't hve much choice.

That was in a different property, so nothing to do with the current one.

In what way is it substandard? Is the electrician also doing part time cleaning or do you just want a free rewire out of the landlord?

Make your mind up, either it is substandard or it is dangerous. The landlord will also have had it checked, so it's your friend's word against his. Legally he doesn't have to upgrade anything providing the wiring passes an inspection. Just because it doesn't suit you it does't matter.

Go and see a solicitor - how else will you check answers given here are correct?

So ws it you or ompany that found this. I sense clutching at straws for a freebie here.

Why would a socket be under the oven?

Why did he go cutting wires?

Depends on the rating - my microwave is plugged in and that has a convection oven.

I would check the electrician is correct and why with your vast knowledge and research you didn't notice a cooker supply! The fuse would have gone anyway.

You're mixing up what you want and what is safe. If the wiring was safe at the time of installation and is in good condition then no you can't have a freebie.

Your electrician is an idiot, he hasn't the first clue which is why I doubt he is correct about an earlier point you chose to believe about the supply.

Contact the manufacturer of the hob and ask them to investigate, then remind your cleaner not to mess with things while you are not there or go cutting any cables for no valid reason. Put your books away and get a QUALIFIED electrician to take a look at the wiring before you do any more damage to it.

[John Rumm]

Aside from the naff cooking performance from a 3kW hob ;-)

[meow2222]

I cant imagine it ever being an issue with a single person. Typically they'll run 2 rings full power, and the 3rd & if present 4th will only come on when the others cycle or aren't on - which is almost all the time. I had one years ago.

Are there also ones that are 750w per ring? If there are that would be

2nd rate.

I once had a 500w one I found behind Noah's ark and it was terrible. It was the bare live element that really put me off. Kit like that is still standard in many countries. The former soviet union uses electrode heating kettles... with all that condensation forming round the top as it boils.

NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

When cooking for myself I can't remember using more than one ring - for potatoes. All other veg goes in the microwave and meat is grilled, roasted or casseroled. Only thing I fry is eggs.

[Duncan]

It was either left on by me, switched on by the cleaner, or failed spontaneously. The cleaner is convinced it was off when he left and he was the person who discovered the fire later in the day (presumably while cleaning the other flats). I don't really care - I offered to replace the hob to avoid arguing about who was to blame.

To stop the fire? He is provided by the landlord and I guess he also takes on general care-taker role. He is not "Bob", the landlord's "electrician".

you're confused. Sorry if my question was unclear. I couldn't care less about the wiring as long as it is safe. I just want to be able to cook.

How do I arrange such an inspection?

Again, I'm sorry you don't understand my original post. I was intending to connect the new hob to the existing wiring myself until I saw the wiring and thought it might be unsafe to do so. The electrician I hired also declined to connect the hob.

Quite. one of the things that bothered me too. It wasn't mounted, just sitting there.

To prevent a fire, presumably.

I know. No problem with the oven alone.

I don't understand this comment (apart from the sarcasm). There is one supply, to the socket I told you about, that supplied the oven and the hob. The electrician said that it was a spur. How would I know that it's a spur simply by looking at the wire coming out of the wall?

I'm asking whether it is safe.

I hired a QUALIFIED electrician (the one you just called an idiot). The landlord won't accept his written notification of sub-standard wiring. I haven't altered the wiring myself, only looked at it.

Thanks for your excellent advice (returning sarcasm).

Duncan

[zikkimalambo]

Firstly, IANAE

It looks like the options are as follows.....

1. Pay to get it installed right.

1. Pay to get it installed right and then sue the Landlord (probably cost you more than 1 and be an expensive option)

2. Move

1. Eat only meals prepared in microwave/oven

2. Get Bob to reconnect it

1. Reconnect it yourself, better than it was, but not in line with current regs and use it carefully.

I wouldn't recommend doing this, but if I was going to do it, I would run a separate spur off the ring to a small enclosure and fit a 16A MCB in in an accessible location.

I know of an installation where a couple of air conditioning units (one per ring!)were installed like this by an "Electrician" and they worked fine, and the building is still there..

[Mogga]

Do you leave the house and the cleaner comes in? Does the cleaner clean and then go, then you leave home?

I know its probably not what you want to think about but the cleaner may well have caused this incident. If they clean other flats in the property then are they employed by the landlord?

I've heard dreadful reports about cleaners who basically live in your flat during the day and then leave shortly before you get home.

[John Rumm]

Not if you use the online service. Costs £30 for the application (which is added to the claim anyway), so if you win it costs nothing.

the OP:

Clearly your current situation is not acceptable. So you need action of some sort. You could write to the landlord requesting he make good the work as a matter of urgency. I would include a copy of the report from your sparks that detailed why the current installation is sub standard. Also state that you would like to see the test and inspection report by his electrician after the work is complete. Point out that if he fails to act within a reasonable time (specify a reasonable time frame - 7 days would seem adequate since the flat is not habitable without cooking facilities). State that if no action is taken you will have the work completed yourself by a professional electrician and seek to recover the costs from him.

If he does nothing (probably your best result) get a sparks in to do it correctly. Send a copy of the bill to the landlord with a letter stating he has 14 days to pay.

If he does not respond to that, send a reminder saying he has a final seven days to pay, and that the consequence of ignoring the letter will be legal action. Wait seven days, if nothing happens fill in the small claims application on the web site and follow the instructions. You then have a strongly defensible position, and a paper trail. if he fails to respond to the court then he loses by default.

[David Hansen]

On 29 May 2007 01:37:43 -0700 someone who may be Duncan wrote this:-

There should be a switch within a couple of metres to turn off the hob. That fault should be rectified before anyone connects the new hob.

The cleaner just happened to have cutters to cut an electric cable? Hmmm. And the cleaner cut a presumably live cable? Hmmm.

[Peter Ashby]

I think that since the hob was damaged by an employee of the landlord then your liability is nil. If the cleaner was employed by you the situation would be different, but as it stands it is the landlord's problem. I would think that on that basis you would have a good chance in the small claims court. The cleaner's actions it seems to me had nothing to do with protecting you and everything to do with protecting him and his employer. Don't let them get away with expecting you to foot the bill.

An agent of the landlord has deprived you of cooking facilities and he (the landlord) is thus responsible for replacing them, not you. It cannot be your fault since you were not in the flat at the time. Open and shut.

Peter

[Lobster]

Would have been, but I suspect that the courts may view the OP's purchase of a replacement hob as some sort of admission of liability. At the very least it will have clouded the waters.

David

[tom.harrigan]

Are you sure? According to the regs, the load on any part of a ring must be unlikely to exceed for long periods the rating of the cable. I don't think it is safe to assume that rating to be >20A. This means that rings are rated at 4.8kW total.

T

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The purpose of a fuse or MCB etc in the CU is to protect the wiring from damage through fault or overload. Rings use 32 amps MCBs for this purpose, so regardless of taking 230 or 240 volts as the working voltage that makes the safe total working load approx 7.5 Kw. In practice you can load them slightly higher than this if the loads are applied incrementally, with no ill effects other than slight voltage drop. To have any real chance of a fire, etc, on a well installed ring with tight well made connections, you could probably more than double this figure. In other words, as with all domestic wiring, there is a large safety factor built in.