Heat pump SEER rating

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!
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On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.  Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.
https://www.energystar.gov/products/most_efficient/central_air_conditioners_and_air_source_heat_pumps
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I don't believe you. There is no way they can be twice as efficient with a different input voltage or frequency.
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On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:

Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during the winter in climates such as the UK?
Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising.
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Is that necessary? If it's reversible, isn't it just that? Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped.

Don't they have a government body to check they're honest?
And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a lie. Cameras with less megapixels than they say, batteries with less capacity than they say, etc. Every time I buy something like that, I test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-)
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wrote:

For the best SEER rating, yep.

Nope. The problem with using them for heating in a climate like yours is that the outside heat collector does ice up and you need a much bigger outside heat absorber to get the best SEER rating for winter heating.
You don't get that effect with summer aircons.

It can actually with two stage designs.

Nope.

Not a lie so much as its hard to come up with a single digit number that really does rank the devices properly, even with something as simple as a fridge or freezer, let alone a heat pump.

That's not a rating, that's a lie about the specs.

Ditto. But that doesn't happen with the best of them like the Panasonic Li ion batterys or the apple iphone batterys
Its more complicated with smartphone talk time which varys quite a bit depending on whether you are in a strong signal area or a weak one where the phone need to transmit more power to be seen by the base.

You don't with Panasonic Li ion batterys.
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rote:

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Argh, so I really need to find data for the heating and the cooling cycle.

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Two seperate circuits? Two condensers etc?

s a

Bullshit. A camera makes a certain number of pixels. A battery has a certain number of amp hours. For example, I bought a "Probat" (shitty make) car battery, and an Exide (good make) car battery. They were both rated at 45 Ah. I charged them both fully. Then I connected each to a car headlamp bulb, drawing about 4 amps. I measured the current over time and worked out the real Ah. The Exide was almost spot on, about 43 Ah. The Probat was 32 Ah. I got a partial refund when I yelled at the seller. Cameras have the same problem. My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP. Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data. Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical! So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied.

Rating, specs, same thing. It's a number defining the capabilities of the device.

Iphone! BUAHAHAAH!!! Everyone I know with an Iphone is constantly moaning it went flat. My 13 phone lasts for WEEKS between charges. What Apple did wrong was the same mistake Clive Sinclair made - making things smaller to the cost of everything else. No room for enough battery. My phone uses two 18650 Li Ion batteries - same as a cycle lamp - total is 4.2V 6Ah. Easy to get replacements too. Oh and you don't need special tools to open the battery cover. And the phone doesn't deliberately disable itself if an unauthorised person opens it.

Yes, a phone can't guarantee battery life, but the battery itself can state a very precise Ah. They could also simply quote the measurement along with the conditions required. Eg. this car will get 50mpg if you drive on a motorway at a constant 70mph. Or this phone will allow you to talk for 3 hours if your signal strength is 90%.

a
Agreed - they don't lie. I have 6 of those 18650 Panasonics here. 3Ah on the label, 3Ah on my test. Even Samsung only get 80% of their rating. But try Chinese shit and you get 20%!
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Yep, to help with the much bigger temperature difference seen with winter heating.

That's not a rating, that's a spec.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

Sure, but that's not a rating, that's a spec.

That's a different problem, optical and physical MPs.

Nope, you don't understand the difference between optical and physical MPs.

Nope.

Ratings arent, specs are.

I don't and my mates Samsung Galaxy S10 goes flat a lot quicker when we are talking to each other for hours during the garage sale run and after that.

But doesn't do anything like what a smartphone does.

Not with ipads they didn't.

Same with all smartphones.

And does fuck all that a smartphone does.

And does fuck all that a smartphone does.

iphones don't do that.

And that's a spec, not a rating.

They do.

And that still doesn't tell you what result you will actually get with particular air temps etc.

There is no signal strength you can do that with.

Its not a rating, it's a spec.

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On 22/10/2019 01:48, Rod Speed wrote:

Probably in the UK the heating cycle figures are more important as its more likely to be fitted for winter heating rather than the few weeks during the summer where you may benifit from AC to cool the air.
Try searching for Coefficient of Performance (COP) for heat pumps and you may get some clues why different figures may be quoted and/or why some of the claims made for the use of heat pumps in the rest of the world may not directly apply to the UK. This doesn't stop companies in the UK from making some of these rest of world claims.
Consider the average monthly temperatures in the UK and you may find some of the higher quoted figures can never be achieved in our climate - or possibly not achievable without a more specialised design which may not have a payback period in a domestic environment. I do appreciate that for some people saving the planet rather that saving on energy bills is more important and cost is not a factor.
COP rises with a higher input temperature COP falls with a higher differential temperature (higher output temperature)
In the UK the (air) source heat pump becomes less efficient as the temperature falls during the winter AND if you attempt to have a higher output temperature to run an existing "conventional" radiator system or hot water the efficiency also falls. Hence why lower temperature under floor heating and/or much larger radiators are recommended. In this real world scenario you may be looking at (SEER/Heating) figures of 2 to 5 rather than the top line 14 minimum for the USA.
Even sites promoting heat pumps suggest that insulating the house is an important part for the installation.
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Same thing. It's a number specifying how much of something the item will do.

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The MPs inside the camera are irrelevant. What matters is useful MPs output to the file.

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It's a telephone. It makes phonecalls and sends texts. If I wanted to use the internet on the move, I'd get a tablet, with oodles more room on the screen.

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No, Apple are well known for making them as thin as possible.

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Irrelevant, the battery is huge compared to yours. Do Apple even tell you the amp hours?

open

Iphone bricking is infamous.

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Whyever not? An AC unit could say "if outside is 30C and inside is 20C, then it will have x efficiency if running at full power".

gth

What? Are you saying your phone won't let you talk for 3 hours on one charge?
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On 22/10/2019 00:02, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000 rather than 1,048,576.
--
Max Demian

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On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes
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On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:

I dont think so
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On 22/10/2019 20:25, Jane Black wrote:

...has no relevance to this duscussion...

..implies the opposite...
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Of course it does, it’s the first hard disk seen on the PC.

No it does not. The lines specifying the formatted capacity are clearly using 1,048,576. byte megabytes.
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Indeed. Yet another con. Pretty annoying when your 2TB drive is 1.8.
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On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:

That is cobblers. I've seen efficient motors runbing off 3V DC.

And that doesnt support the contention either.
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On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider

60Hz vs 50Hz?
For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter driven compressor.
The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and frequency.
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On 22/10/2019 18:14, The Other Mike wrote:

No one with a monniker like "A noiseless patient Spider" van possibly have an IQ over 50
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higher education positively fortifies it."
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