We are building a new barge. We plan to have a diesel fired heating system to under floor plus hot water supply. We also intend to have multi fuel stove and would like to harvest hot water from a back boiler to a gravity fed secondary heating system, to for example a towel rail. Any experience of said? Or tips?. Thanks Viv
I would suggest using a heat bank. These has several advantages. However, the two main ones for you are ability to run without pressurisation and the ability to run multiple heat sources, such as a back boiler, oil boilers and even solar energy from roof pipes. You can even run off electric (including rads and hot water) when you're on shore power. If the oil boiler requires a sealed pressurised circuit, then this can be accommodated.
Talk to DPS
If the suggested model is small and light enough, problem solved! They do custom builds, so you might persuade them to make one to fit whatever cubbyhole you have available.
You are unlikely to get good gravity circulation with low mounted rads due to the lack of height available to set something up. You might get some gravity circulation from the back boiler into the heat bank, if you can mount one above the other. You will probably need a pump for the rads, though. You can run this off an inverter, or find a 12V model. Alternatively, a ceiling or high wall mounted rad might get some gravity circulation (and would be a useful safety device when running on solid fuel), but might not be as effective at heating, as heat rises, and you really want rads as low as possible. OTOH, in such an enclosed space, a high mounted rad might actually be effective. Obviously, you'd still need electric power if you want hot water, to drive the exchanger loop. See below for a diagram of the proposed solution.
Should you not have space for even a small heat bank, then a Dunsley neutraliser is effectively the same thing scaled down to have no water storage. The disadvantage is that it doesn't supply hot water, although you can add hot water capability with an external plate exchanger. This would obviously require a heat source to be on at the time, with sufficient power for the hot water usage required. Alternatively, use an oil combi boiler and don't bother with the external exchanger. This won't provide hot water off solid fuel, though.
Your main problem is going to be dissipating unwanted boiler heat if you want to run the solid fuel, but not the rads. The ceiling/high mounted gravity rad would be helpful here, even if pumped rads are provided in better locations.
(Proposed heat bank solution below)
+---- rad circuit ---+ | | +---------+ | | | +->--+ | | | | | heat +----------
A way of using waste heat from the engine to heat your water. On our narrow boat we have what they call a "calorifier" which is really a cylinder capable of taking pumped water pressure, with two coils - one for the boiler and one for the engine.
In the summer, when travelling daily, we get all our hot water for "free"
Elson make square thermal stores, that will fit into a tight barge easily enough, and supply all the heating and DHW and bee heated by various means. They will make one to spec. Cylinders take up space.
DPS also make square stores to custom size.
Christian.
Hi,
The normal way to do it AFAICR is to have 28mm copper rising diagonally at a gentle incline from the back boiler into the top of the rad(s), then from the bottom of the rads falling at a gentle incline back to the boiler. This also needs a header tank with an overflow in a safe place.
Try asking over on uk.rec.waterways, and talk to some boat owners who have this type of thing if possible.
cheers, Pete.
I lived on a barge for many years. It had an oil fired (drip feed) boiler and gravity-fed radiators. It worked fine (though I didn't have underfloor heating. Make sure the boiler is mounted as low as possible. Also remember that a lot of the heat comes directly form the boiler - put it where you want some heat.
Also remember to fit a big oil tank - if building from new I would fit a 1000 litre tank. Robert
A square thermal store is better than a heat bank for a barge. Simpler and no pump. Elson make one that has all the controls on the top, even the coils can be extracted for cleaning. The square store can be fitted at the bottom of a cupboard and the pumped etc on the top. A removable shelf over the controls. Space is them maximised.
They also have some with the controls on the bottom, so the reverse, store at the top and controls under.
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Yes, I can the advantage of not having a pump, particularly when the flow rate requirement is likely to be very low. However, the water supply itself is presumably pumped, so there must some power supply available. However, given that it could be battery, reducing consumption could be good.
Christian.
And do they make one with two separate heating inputs? As I suggested in another thread, it's well worth grabbing that free heat from the engine if this is to be a mobile boat.
Yes additional coils can be fitted and it is sensible to capture wasted heat. If you can get heat from the exhaust even better. A heat bank is a thermal store with a plate heat excahnger and pump for DHW draw-off. A thermal site has DHW take off via an immersed coil. Both heat incoming water instantly. Both can have the heating taken off the store of water. The thermal store is simpler but gives lower flowrate, which on a barge is not an issue. What you need is:
- square or e rectangular thermal store
- extra coil for engine heatv reclaim.
I would have the engine heat the stiore via a coil, not directly. If the hweatr comming from thye engine is boiling the store for any reason the engine can be cut off, or a motorised valve can close preventing heat from the engine entering the store.
Space is an isssue, so a look at a Myson Kickspace heater, which is a fan heater off the thermal store located under units, beds, etc. A couple of these will heat the barge no problem.
Best of luck, you have a lot of work getting the right specs and quotes for makers. Know what you want, and then ask a maker to deliver.
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an engine exhaust will kick out a ton of heat, and it fairly easy to capture. Far more heat this way than off the engine cooling circuit. NT
On 29 Jan 2005 15:03:32 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk wrote, without context:
Are you sure about that? Most marinised engines have a water-cooled exhaust manifold.
How would you go about capturing the heat from the exhaust? Some sort of water jacket? I like my exhaust system to be as standard as usual, as it's just the sort of thing you end up fixing with whatever bits you can scrounge from a car parts shop miles from home (says he speaking from experience).
We get enough heat out of a 1.5l BMC to heat a 9 gallon tank to 80C in around an hour - just by tapping into cooling circuit between the engine and the skin tank. Just how much heat do you want?
That is poor. A 30 gallon Part L cylinder takes 30 minutes. Say you want hot water and require to run the engine only as you are not near a power point. That is a long time to run an engine to get 18 gallons. With tapping into the exhaust that will be at least halved. Also an house to heat
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It's not poor - it's fine.
Eh? How long a cylinder will take must depend on the energy going into it.
You don't run the engine just to get hot water - that leads to cylinder glazing.
How do you "tap into the exhaust" please?
It may not be at the theoretical limits of efficiency, but that doesn't matter.
Remember, this is a smallish (30bhp) diesel running under low load conditions. It takes about 10 minutes of moving to get up to 60 and open the thermostat! You're not going to get anything in that time.
And this is free energy. When travelling you are running your engine for a lot more than an hour.
The point is that heating (gas especially) is madly expensive. It cost around 200 quid to add the tank to our system and it paid itself back in about 8 weeks boating. There is no point making the system any more complicated or expensive.
And, of course, it only takes an hour or so from cold. With a well insulated tank it is hot enough to wash and shave in from the day before even before you start off. So you either wait until underway before washing the dishes
I really do know what I'm talking about here. I've done it, and I know a lot of other people who've done it too. I don't know anyone who has "tapped into the exhaust".
bigcat has. He will fill you in.
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Yes, the bulk of all energy input comes out the exhaust as heat. Very very roughly you can expect to get twice as much power out the exhaust in heat as the engine gives out in mechanical power. Thats serious output. 30hp=22kW, so a 30hp engine can kick out a max of around 40kW heat. A 9 gallon tank to 80C in 1 hour equals a small fraction of that power.
Hammer a car down the motorway and the exhaust valves can glow red with the heat.
I dont know diddly about marine things, and didnt know that.
usual,
Since I dont know how your manifold water jacket works, its hard to say. Maybe if you find a diagram of it somewhere we can look and see.
Its should be poss to do it without doing any serious mods, so that standard parts will repair when needed.
Hmm, I vaguely wonder if you could use exhaust heat for storage space heating.
NT
The message from snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk contains these words:
Didn't the dreadful VW Beetle use the exhaust for in-car heating and (occasionally) for poisoning the occupants.
I know the Fiat 500 did. But those kind of setups are ntohing like what I was referring to.
NT
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