Gas pipe in screed.

On 06/07/2017 23:10, Tim Lamb wrote:

I think we would all be very impressed and grateful if Steph replied in a constructive manner.
I would personally commend him for being helpful.
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Tim Lamb wrote:

Rather than tracpipe, which I think needs flaring tools etc, you can buy yellow plastic coated copper tube, such as
<http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/product/kme-yorkshire-15mm-kuterlex-yellow -(6-m)/>
you might be able to find it in smaller quantities?
otherwise wrap pipe in 2" denso tape? that's what dad (ex EMGAS) used to use.
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On 07/07/2017 08:26, Andy Burns wrote:

The requirements for pipe in screed from BS6891, read as follows:
"8.8 Pipes buried in concrete ground floors
8.8.1 Installation pipework shall not be buried in concrete slabs.
8.8.2 Rigid stainless steel pipework shall not be buried in concrete screeds.
Pipe buried in concrete screed shall be installed in accordance with Figure 5.
Where a pipe is buried in a concrete screed there shall be a minimum of 25 mm of cover above the pipe.
8.8.3 Pipes buried in concrete ground floors shall be protected against failure caused by movement. Joints shall be kept to a minimum. Compression fittings shall not be buried in concrete screeds or concrete slab.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 8.8.3 Suitable methods of protection are as follows. a) Pipe laid on top of base concrete and subsequently covered by a screed (see also 9.2.1). b) Steel or copper pipe installed into preformed ducts with protective covers. c) Steel or copper pipe fitted with additional soft, non-permeable covering material. The coverings should be soft and thick enough to provide movement yet resilient enough to support the concrete cover while it is setting.
The covering should be at least 5 mm thick and resistant to concrete ingress which would negate its ability to allow movement.
Reference should also be made to 9.2.1 for the application of adequate corrosion protection.
8.8.4 Pipes passing vertically through solid floors shall take the shortest practicable route and shall be sleeved (see 8.10).
8.8.5 Compression fittings shall not be buried in the structure or below ground."
And figure 5 looks like:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:GasPipeInScreed.jpg
Section 9.2.1 has the following:
"9.2 Buried pipework 9.2.1 Internal environment 9.2.1.1 Pipework that is buried in a solid floor or wall shall be factory sheathed, or protected on site by wrapping or with suitable bituminous paint protection. The entire section of pipe and fittings to be buried shall be protected. Any sheathing or wrapping shall be examined for cuts or other defects and made good prior to use. Joints and fittings shall be cleaned, and wrapped or painted with bituminous paint after the satisfactory completion of a gas tightness test.
Galvanized or painted pipes shall not be buried without additional protection as specified in the previous paragraph.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 9.2.1.1 Protective measures are applied as a precaution against electrolytic and/or chemical corrosion. The use of factory bonded wrapping or sheathing is recommended.
9.2.1.2 Where installation pipes are to be buried in magnesium-oxy-chloride cement or magnesite flooring, they shall be of copper with a factory bonded sheath and jointed with copper capillary fittings. Bends and joints shall be further protected by wrapping with a suitable plastic tape. All surfaces shall be clean and dry before the additional protection is applied with a minimum 50 % overlap to provide at least a layer of double thickness."
--
Cheers,

John.
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Well no. No one in authority, for the present at least, can obtain a warrant to enter somebody's home to prevent them from their doing their own gas work without first proving their competence. Or in the absence of any such proof to examine their gas installations and appliances and demand to see the relevant certificates.

Nobody is questioning your competence, Charles either then or now. In fact without having information of any kind on which to base a statement, and without researching figures for household gas explosions and their causes, quite possibly 99.99% of work done by DIY'ers always was, and still is, perfectly safe.
And then again you're a self selecting sample. Doubtless in the past 29 years there'll have been at least one or two if not a lot more people who did their own gas work who blew themselves up as a consequence. But then, they're hardly likely to be posting on here, to present the contrary point of view.
Insurers and others on the other hand are solely concerned with that other 0.01%, and the possible consequences should things go wrong. And even without anything going wrong, they're even more enthusiastic about avoiding paying out on claims wherever possible. It might be a condition of a household insurance policy for instance that all gas installations and appliances on the insured premises, installed since a certain date, have been installed and tested and signed off by a Gas Safe Registered, or Corgi as was, fitter*. Similarly with boiler inspections where appropriate. This would even include fitting a bayonet hose to the back of a cooker. Despite the fact that the insured householder might be a retired, but unregistered gas fitter, with 40 years experience.
* I stand to be corrected but it's my understanding that a Gas Safe Registered fitter is prohibited from signing off any installation for which he wasn't solely responsible, or for which another Gas Safe Registered fitter wasn't responsible. Basically with a new pipe installation in a floor, if this GSR fitter didn't fit it, and there's no paperwork saying another GSR fitter fitted it, then he can't sign off any subsequent work done on that pipe. So while he might still do the checks, he won't sign the work off, such as to satisfy an insurance company. But as I say, I stand to be corrected on this point.
michael adams
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michael adams
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charles explained :

From personal experience, I have a deep distrust of Gas Safe and before it Corgi engineers. Many come across as extremely prececious, yet I have come across numerous incidents of work done by such being way below a standard even for an amateur. One such engineer's error actually set alight to a house, in a second incident at another house, a supposedly soldered pipe was just held in a solder fitting by friction alone, leaking and almost caused a second fire had the pipe fallen out.
I am an engineer too, not a gas fitter, but I am happy to dispense my knowledge to anyone who might be able to make sensible use of it. I also know several Gas Safe qualified engineers who would likewise be happy to give free advise.
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On 06/07/2017 21:35, Roger Hayter wrote:

The gas supply to my house has a buried compression joint, where the yellow plastic joins onto the 3/4 inch iron under the concrete apron in front of the garage (which contains the meter).
Gas Compression joints are not completely avoidable but must be 'accessible'.
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On 06/07/2017 21:13, michael adams wrote:

To demonstrate his own competence?
I doubt Steph knows the answer and is simply trolling.
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Then exactly the same applies to any pros on here giving DIY advice about their trade. Like Adam.
Also, just why is a 'Gas Safe' fitter on here? Does he want advice from others on how to do DIY tasks?
--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 07/07/2017 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Or just trolling?
Is there an equivalent publication of gas fitting as there is with IET Regs?
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On 07/07/2017 00:19, Fredxxx wrote:

There are many applicable BS docs, although not one single BS document with the scope of BS7671. Industry standard manuals probably give a better overview though. See "Tolley’s Domestic Gas Installation Practice (Gas Service Technology Volume 2)" as a good example.
Some of those BS standards more relevant for domestic stuff would include:
BS6891 "Installation of low pressure gas pipework of up to 35 mm (R1¼) in domestic premises (2nd family gas) — Specification"
BS5440 "Installation and maintenance of flues and ventilation for gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net (1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases)"
BS5871 "Specification for the installation and maintenance of gas fires, convector heaters, fire/back boilers and decorative fuel effect gas appliances"
BS6172 "Code of practice for Installation of domestic gas cooking appliances (2nd family gases)"
BS6798 "Specification for installation of gas-fired boilers of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net"
BS7838 "Corrugated stainless steel semi-rigid pipe and associated fittings for low-pressure gas pipework of up to DN 50"
Then there are also *tons* of standard applying to individual components, and materials. e.g. BS EN 751 "Sealing materials for metallic threaded joints in contact with 1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases and hot water"
(all (except Tolley's) available with a BSI subscription or from a public library service that maintains a subscription)
--
Cheers,

John.
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No it doesn't. If Adam gives advice on here and someone incompetent, say my next door neighbour, misunderstands that advice, the worst that can happen is that they might electocute themselves along with possibly members of their family. And sad though this might be, once my grief had subsided, that would be it. And although technically incorrect this might be called "Darwin in Action"
If however they had misunderstood advice being given by a gas fitter on here then quite possibly they might not only blow their own house, up but mine too.
Not everybody posting on here lives in a house or cottage on acres of land in the middle of nowhere. As you of all people might have been expected to know.

Possibly he's worried about living next door to incompetents who might be otherwise tempted to do their own gas DIY ?
michael adams
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On 07/07/2017 08:54, michael adams wrote:

The number of deaths by explosion is so small a number you ought to be more worried about storing petrol and crossing roads.
You seem to have little grasp of proportion.

No, simply he is a troll and hasn't a clue how to answer the question posed here.

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You do know the vast majority of gas explosions etc don't involve any DIY at all?

I'd never advise anyone to DIY anything they aren't competent at. And most who would attempt doing gas pipework themselves will already be familiar with doing the same with water.
What I do object to is things like Gas Safe. And Corgi before it. Simply a way of getting a monopoly for those who pay the subscriptions. And it certainly shows when we get posts like the one from Steph on here.
--
*WOULD A FLY WITHOUT WINGS BE CALLED A WALK?

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 07/07/2017 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I am not sure what you are arguing for.
no regulation of those who carry out gas work for reward?
a multiplicity of "competent person schemes" as eg with electrical work?
a state monopoly?
something else?
Bear in mind that AIUI it was HSE who decided to stick with a single, monopolistic operator.
But at least the name won't have to change if they switch operator again: HSE own the Gas Safe name and logo.
--
Robin
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No I don't, actually.
.

Spoken like a true trade unionist. Who doubtless enjoyed all the benefits of working in a closed shop environment for what was it, upwards of 30 years ?
As it happens, unlike most trade union members in the general unions at least, joining the Gas Safe Register involves rather more than simply paying a subscription.
And even if as has been claimed some of them show a degree of incompetence, the standard to which they have supposedly been trained and tested, no doubt by paying backhanders to the people conducting the tests according to you, is sufficient to satisfy insurance companies, and any solicitors representing the people who are about to buy your house.
michael adams
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It happens that michael adams formulated :

It is quite an unecessarily large annual sum of money, to stay on the register.

They, in my personal opinion take little interest getting rid of incompetent members, but then why would they want to lose a paying member?
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Indeed.
Very sound advice there, from a fully paid up member of the National Institute of Selective Quoting.
michael adams
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I've never worked in one, and don't agree with them.

Well that shows your knowledge of unions comes straight from the Daily Mail.

And you think that an adequate safeguard?

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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That must have made you popular.
<quote>
From Aunty and Her Little Villains.
The BBC and the Unions, 1969-1984
Anthony McNicholas
The main union at the BBC was the ABS (the Association of Broadcasting Staff). It was recognised by the BBC across all areas
Industrial relations in the BBC had historically been much better than in the ITV companies.
There was no BBC equivalent to the strike and lock out of 1979, which saw commercial television off the air for ten weeks.
There was no closed shop agreement, which weakened the ABS, and it never enjoyed the same leverage with management as its counterparts in commercial television. Twice, in 1968 and again in 1975, the ABS had tried unsuccessfully to persuade the BBC to allow a closed shop with it in order to resist encroachments from the ACTT
<quote>
http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/article/view/483
While over at ITV
<quote>
For much of the 1970s Britain suffered high inflation rates (peaking at 24.2% in 1975) which meant high pay claims by workers, despite encouragement and even legal restrictions from various governments to restrain pay and thus supposedly break the inflationary cycle.
The ITV companies were highly profitable throughout this period, constantly beating the BBC in the weekday ratings and consequently receiving large amounts of advertising revenue. They had to deal with several unions at this time including the usually moderate EETPU (Electrical, Electronic, Telecommunications and Plumbing Union who handled electronics in the studios), NATTKE (National Association of Theatrical, Television and Kine Employees) and the ACTT (Association of Cinematograph Television and Allied Technicians) led by the militant left-winger Alan Sapper.
In 1979 (when the annual inflation rate was 13.4%) the ITV companies made a 9% pay offer. The unions rejected this, wanting 25% and claiming that their members' pay over recent years had been eroded by inflation. On 23rd July the EETPU and NATTKE unions carried out a national one-day strike which led to all regions being blanked out except for Westward Television (whose members voted not to strike) and Channel Television. In the other companies EETPU members had switched off equipment that ACTT members refused to switch back on and operate and therefore no television programmes could be made or broadcast.
</quote>
http://coronationstreet.wikia.com/wiki/1979_ITV_strike
But then I suppose you were away on your holidays or off sick, while all this was going on.

It's rather more a case that your knowledge of Gas Safe Register fitters, who one might expect to be members of the working class just like yourself, appears to be straight out of the "Daily Mail", I'm afraid.

It's the best possible safeguard there is.
Contrary to what you seem to think, insurance companies aren't mugs, and they're going to be the first people to suffer financially should the Gas Safe Registration scheme as its now operates prove to be grossly inefficient.
So your attempt to run down your fellow workers was all in vain, I'm afraid,
michael adams
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>>> > What I do object to is things like Gas Safe. And Corgi

Sorry the penny has just dropped.
Might it simply be the case that somebody still hasn't got over having to pay a Gas Safe Registered fitter ?70 to attach a bayonet hose to the back of their cooker, 3 or 4 years ago ?
(Having possibly been mugged into it by choosing to have the cooker delivered by Currys or similar ?)
michael adams
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