Fuses - again

Dec 29, 2019 Last reply: 6 years ago 165 Replies

Which is exactly what they do...

Note "13A cable" has no meaning in this sense. Since we are talking about fault current situations and not continuous current handling capacity. i.e. you will need a flex with at least 1.5mm^2 conductors to carry 13A continuously. However a 0.5mm^2 flex may still be adequately protected by a 13A fuse while carrying 150A of fault current.

What matters, is will the cable survive long enough without damage to open the protective device. To know that you can do some arithmetic to prove it.

For example, say you have a device with 1.8m of lead, and the flex has

0.5mm^2 CSA conductors. Lets assume its protected by a 13A fuse, and the plug is in the furthest socket from the consumer unit on the circuit. To make matters worse, let's assume the circuit itself only just meats the maximum allowable earth loop impedance at that socket for a circuit protected by a B32 MCB.

So let's take the circuit earth loop impedance at the socket as 1.37 Ohms[1].

We can take the loop impedance of the flex at around 87 mOhms/m, or 0.16 Ohms total. So if we add those, we get a total of 1.53 Ohms at the appliance end of the "3A" flex.

So if we have a fault right at the appliance end, that will give a prospective fault current of around 230 / 1.53 = 150A

Now we look at the fusing time for a 13A BS1362 fuse[2]. At 150A that's nicely down in the 0.01 second range or less. So the last step is to work out what the minimum cross sectional area of cable is needed to survive that 150A of fault current for the duration. We can get this using the adiabatic equation [3]:

s = sqrt( I^2 x t ) / k

where k is a constant dictated by the flex construction - we will take it as 115 for a PVC flex. Plug the numbers in and we get:

s = sqrt( 150^2 x 0.01 ) / 115 = 0.13 mm^2

Hence we can conclude that our 0.5mm^2 CSA conductor flex is plenty large enough to withstand the fault when protected by a 13A fuse.

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Yes

See the example I posted higher up the thread.

Contrary to common expectations, that flex is likely to be conservatively oversized when protected by a 13A fuse.

Fuses can be called upon to provide fault current protection and/or overload protection.

In the case of a lamp there is no likely or plausible situation that would result in a significant and prolonged overload, since the largest lamp it is designed to take would probably be a 100W incandescent bulb, and that has a maximum draw of under half an amp.

So the fuse only has to worry about fault protection.

(also remember, if you plug that lamp in Germany, it will have only a

16A MCB in the consumer unit protecting it)

If you read up on the concepts of fault currents as opposed to overload current, you might be reassured.

Fuses can be used to provide protection for either, but in most cases[1] for a modern appliance they are only required to provide protection against fault currents. (The appliance itself should include any protection required to mitigate against for overload current, should that be necessary)

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[1] Once exception being multi socket extension leads.

The usual "problem" appliances are older ones that were intended for the UK market only (and hence might include the plug fuse in the design of their protection), or ones where the user has replaced or extended the flex.

I agree that using the "right" fuse rather than always 13A is "better", and I do it myself, however you also have to accept that you can't rely everyone doing (or even being able to do) this.

Although NT could have worded that better, what he is saying is a reasonable assessment if you start from the principle that any modern appliance will have a flex fitted that will still fail safe when plugged into a 16A protected circuit with no additional fusing, as would be the case in the rest of Europe.

Then the fuse selected (if one is not just defaulting to 13A) will then depend on the appliance load. E.g it would not be appropriate to fit a

3A fuse to the plug of your Washing Machine or Kettle.

A table lamp would be a resonable example. No typical use case where it could cause an overload. So all you need worry about is fault protection for the cable.

(There are times you can even quite legitimately wire a fixed circuit without including overload protection[1])

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Correct.

But perfectly safe.

If the internals of a device need protection by a fuse - like many electronic devices, it will be done so at the device itself - and not rely on the plug fuse. Becuase virtually nothing is made for the UK only, and very few countries have plug top fuses.

Safe yup, but will also blow the fuse in short order...

Although quite a few (mostly former colonies and dependencies) have pinched ours.

0.5mm2 is not suitable for 16A loads. It will carry far more during brief faults, but not for long.

NT

It's mainly old stuff, extension leads & many Chinese imports that need under 13A fusing. Wherever my 1937 set was sold it didn't come with any fusing or overload protection, and the radial mains wiring sometimes supplied suitable protection, sometimes didn't. That just how things were then. It was common knowledge in the 30s that leaving appliances on unattended caused many fires and was a lousy thing to do.

The considerable quantity of iffy Chinese goods, extension leads, and to a lesser extend old gear makes the advice that a 13A fuse is good for anything poor advice. But yes, we hear it a lot from people that should know better.

NT

I was not suggesting it was. I was saying that it *is* in most cases however adequately protected from fault currents by a 16A MCB.

I think you are missing the point. It is not that one would advise a

*user* to fit a 13A fuse regardless, one must insist that a *designer* ensures the product will fail safe if they do.

I hope you're not suggesting the correct fuse will always stop something catching fire?

The best advice would be to junk any extension lead which isn't protected by a 13 amp fuse. And if old gear isn't protected by its own correct type of fuse, either junk it or fit one.

Anything else is simply bad practice.

What about reducing the fuse to 10 amps to create an added margin of safety (or even 5 amps if it is only used for electronic equipment)?

As the current through a fuse rises so does the temperature, and as a 5 amp fuse can carry at least 7 amps for quite a while the temerpature of the fuse will rise and may even become hot, and that will cause the plug to become hot which might start a fire or cause other problems of expantion and contraction.

How can an extension lead (in the UK) not have a fused plug?

John

Not strictly an extension cable, but an IEC lead to a monitor, just a few feet away from me in the UK, is unfused. Sure, any approved Schuko to 13A adaptor would have a fuse but the lead itself doesn't.

True. That's why I suggested 5 amps rather than 2 or 3 amps, which might be enough. Do you support the +50% rule?

13A fused.

Actually, I have an extension lead, semi-permanently installed with a 2A fuse. It was fitted to run a set of Christmas tree lights and used a comparatively small cable to make it less obtrustive. If anyone was foolish enought to plug a big load into it, the fuse would blow. Fuse protecting tehncable.

Generally true for new products, if not the point.

NT

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If you were in charge of my electricals you'd be sacked.

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