Farm timber barn

[Tim Lamb]

I have been following the *single brick wall insulation* thread with some interest.

Sat facing me across the yard is a 45'x16' two storey Victorian timber barn. Feather edge board on mainly 4"x2" framing. Really a glorified shed, only standing because the woodworm enjoy holding hands.

Generations of farmers (without access to this group) have rotted sections of the sole plate and wall framing by allowing wet bedding straw to accumulate. The building has responded by sinking until prevented by concrete infill.

For years I have fostered grand ideas about proper restoration but realise it won't happen.

My current thinking is to scrap the ground floor walls and replace with modern foundations and an insulated (Kingspan with battens to carry new feather edge cladding) block work supporting wall.

The question is.... what U value could I expect to achieve and if a change of use to B&B, office or domestic were permitted how would Building Control view such a construction.

regards

[Mike]

It really depends on the final use, but for the B&B or donestic a barn conversion is usually now treated the same as a new build and so you need to meet the requirements of part L. For a barn this is difficult - for a barn in a conservation area it is very difficult - and for a listed barn it is virtually impossible. There are three within sight of me (were it not dark) that are currently in limbo over this problem.

First thing to ascertain though is if you could actually get planning consent in the first place. Some places have now said no more conversions whereas others are placing local residency restrictions. After that you need to talk to your local BCO to find out just how strict they will be.

Good luck.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Mike writes

Umm. PPS7 suggests re-use for barns close to developed areas so planning for *something* should be OK.

I have tentatively consulted with the local heritage dept. without them getting very excited. There is no current listing and this is not a conservation area.

Yes. I don't think local planning have made up their minds.

As it is agricultural and not listed I can more or less do what I like but would hate to find I had wasted time and money:-(

Thanks

regards

[Peter Crosland]

It may not be so straightforward! If you are changing the use from agricultural you will need palnning permision as well as building regulations approval. Current Government guidance is very much against any developement in areas away from local facilities.

Peter Crosland

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Peter Crosland writes

And there's the rub! I can rebuild it how I like for continued agricultural use. If I obtain consent and change the use I need to meet Building Regs. for the planned purpose.

This is urban fringe so I have medium pressure gas, 3 phase 415 and

11Kv, mains drainage, broad band (available), mains water (slightly iffy as the final 50m is by private pipe), adopted highway but nearest bus stop 1/2 mile.

regards

[Peter Crosland]

Have you had a close look at the local developement plan? I assume it is outside the developement limit in which case you probably have little chance.

Peter Crosland

[Mike]

One of the ones I mentioned is adjacent to the local village but the planners don't want the village expanding, even by a few yards, so it's in limbo land.

A good start. One less hassle.

conversions

There is a booklet from SPAB which deals with barn conversions. I would suggest getting hold of this is the next step. It covers lots (but not all) typical barn constructions and will have advice on what can be done to yours. Note however that SPAB can be rather 'over-religious' about old buildings so take some of their conservation advice with a pinch of salt but the structural stuff is fine.

[Mike]

Almost in the centre of town then :-) We've got 2xx volts from up a pole (where xx varies wildly with the time of day and wind direction :-) and a 'maintained' road which everybody thinks belongs to my nearest neighbour but aren't sure.

[Rick]

My friend had a dilapadated shed, what he did was buid a brick building inside the shed. He had a lovley brick building, and zero planning problems. His shed was somewhat smaller than yours.

My "project house" I am converting a shippon into rooms (75 square metres), effectivly what I have done is gut the shippon, and build a building inside it, using the old walls as the extarnal walls. The internal walls support the roof. This is being done with full building regs control. This is a DIY project, with a five year timescale, I am

1 year ahead of plan, after 1 year works.

Benifits to me include - I have lost weight - I am fit - I have *REALLY* enjoyed doing this - I have a 2nd carear if there is a slump in Internet Hackers - So far I have upped the value by 50K more than I have spent (OK some I would have got by doing noting at all)

To the U value question, you will need to get to the values in the building regs, whish is not hard at all. You could do this simply by lining the whole place in kingspan, like a kingspan box inside the barn. The more you spend on kingspan the better the U value, but in the end the kingspan costs so much more than the energy you save.

Rick

[Rick]

I my area planning wanted my barn converting, as it means that one falling down traditional building survives, and one less red brick ugly house has to be allowed somewhere.

Rick

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Peter Crosland writes

Greenbelt.

regards

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Rick writes

Black feather edge? I don't think separate housing is likely or very practical. There used to be a restriction on less than 60' between facing windows which could not be met here.

I think office accommodation is sensible or add it to the existing house in which case someone richer than I will have to own it.

Meanwhile I have to stop it falling down in the best possible way:-)

regards

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Rick writes

Oh. What about foundations? I have a few courses of soft red brick topped with the largely rotted sole plate. Probably 12" below current ground level and 9" above. Surely anything heavy is going to need proper foundations.

Well done. From Shippon, I take it you are up North? I am currently clearing out our old *cow shed* 45'x14', ready to break up the concrete floor. I will re-use this as a woodwork shop while I do other projects. Timber barns may make the conservationists drool but I think they are a pain....

I get that from the day job:-)

With the PM anxious to re-reform the CAP and save all that taxpayers money, I have to consider my pension.

OK. Although putting it on the outside allows the retention of any interest in the existing timber structure.

regards

[Mike]

conversions

To quote our planning department concerning a local shippon (not mine) ripe for conversion "it will fall down long before it gets permission from us to convert it".

[Christian McArdle]

You do realise that it would be cheaper to demolish and rebuild?

I take it the original barn has some architectural merit that is worth preserving?

If so, can the old walls be detached and then reassembled onto a newly constructed masonry or timber frame structure, built onto new foundations?

You can achieve whatever U-value you want, by varying the thickness of the insulation. You won't get enough between the studs, and don't want to either, as this leads to cold bridging issues.

Christian.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Christian McArdle writes

Umm.. It would certainly be cheaper to rebuild using a steel frame to meet BS5502. This would *lock in* the agricultural use as planners are unlikely to consider a change of use on a new building.

Umm.. again. The barn forms part of a U shaped courtyard; with the house and a single storey domestic link. It is important as part of the historic setting of the only working farm within this village but merit? Not really old enough or big enough to have an interesting construction. In my opinion it has been re-modelled with a hay loft retro-fitted.

The only slight interest it can offer is that the loft floor beams are oversized for the duty and are set 45degrees off square. This allows the floor joists to be nailed through bevels rather than jointed or set on top.

ASCII art is not my forte but someone else may understand and sketch.

Planning guidance for accepting change of use requires that structures are substantially sound. I think consent would have to precede major work of this sort.

I had 50mm of Kingspan applied externally in mind with a 150mm block wall to support the second floor. If I repair the existing timber structure I would consider inter-stud plasterboard and fibre as well as

50mm Kingspan. The exterior would have to be new feather edge. Somewhere there will be a vapour condensation issue.

This is getting beyond the technical knowledge of a farmer.

regards

[Christian McArdle]

You're going to need a lot more than 50mm. I'd be thinking 100mm Kingspan between the joists (less if ventilation gaps are required), with at least

50mm (and probably more) butted over the entire wall, including covering the joists.

Christian.

[AJH]

So a steel frame may be sourced for a few thousand, founded on concrete plinths to a satisfactory size and depth. If this were inside it could form a skeleton offset from the existing structure. Once the existing structure is supported it can be repaired and remain as the skin. Zed purlins offsetting the building from frame and tyvek under the old "skin". With the zed purlins filled with rockwool and the steelwork infilled with building lock for thermal capacity.

The blockwork would offer some strength so the steelwork would e lighter than a free standing barn. The sandwich of feather edge, tyvek, 200mm insulation and 4" block should meet regulations for heat loss and vapour barrier/ventilation. You know a man that would happily do the structural calcs.

Unfortunately the internal timbers would not e visible. AJH

[Tim Lamb]

In message , AJH writes

Er.. that's a bit like producing a fried egg starting with cross breeding dinosaurs:-)

If I'm repairing the existing frame I'll do some temporary reinforcement and then jack up the relevant part with Acrows. You missed the Oz barn but similar lower wall issues have been overcome by use of a block work dwarf wall. Thrust might be a problem which is why I thought about replacing the lower walls entirely.

Do I? If the woodworm jump in unison it won't weigh anything.

The thinking there was to recover any moderately sound timber, slice it with a metal cutting bandsaw and attach it to the new wall as superficial decoration with plaster inlay.

Still dreaming about retirement, you see.

regards

[Mary Fisher]

He didn't ... he had breakfast in it at least!

Unlike some who couldn't stay the course :-)

I'm sure you do. Know the man, that is.

While I love the woodworm bit, what are the odds of them jumping in unison? Or at all? Ask him.

Don't stop dreaming, it's worth it.

Mary