External handrail fixing

We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
<(Amazon.com product link shortened)>.
However, as can be seen at the photo at <https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz , the fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge of the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the brick and tile meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would not want the handrail inside that. I am concerned that even if it survives drilling, trying to use a plug or rawlplug could result in the top edge of the brick splitting away when the screw is tightened. Maybe some sort of resin fixing such as <https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r-kem11-175-kit-styrene-free-polyester-resin-175ml/4100r would be less likely to damage the brick. I do not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no replacement. The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.
Any comments?
--

Jeff

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Concrete screws despite their name will fix to brick as well and can be dri ven in close to the edge. I have a wooden post fixed into one of those meta post brackets which in turn is fixed to a paving slab 50mm thick two of the screws are about 25mm from the edge and have not caused any breakaway even with the post supporting a handrail.
Richard
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Depends a lot on the brick:-) Yours look to be solid clay rather than full of holes. Assuming the rail is fitted coming up from the right in your photo, you could fit an additional spacer as high up the lower upright as you can and screw through that to the wall?
I don't see a problem in doing the same to the metal framed PVC.

--
Tim Lamb

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On Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:07:22 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:

If you are uncertain the brick will take the full tug load of an adult, I w ould put in double right-angle 'Z' brackets at the base of the handrail so you can drill through into both the vertical long side of the brick, and th e horizontal surface of the step below / to the side. Then weld or bolt the upright to the brackets.
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/45/Handrail.jpg
Owain
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On 02/08/2020 11:18, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Agreed, though to add to an earlier post the "Multi Monti" type screws (which need an accurate hole) are very secure, and will work close to the edge of any reasonably good brick, especially with a deep hole. The concrete screws which look more like wood screws should not be used near edges.
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On 02/08/2020 11:18, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Or working with that theme, stick the rail into the lower step, but hard against the top step, then use a U bolt or similar anchor to fix the post to the side of the top step.
--
Cheers,

John.
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On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:20 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

How much!

And there isn't a great deal holding those vertical bricks in place. I'm assuming that the hand rail will be perpendicular to the wall, so someone leaning heavly on the rail will be effectively levering the brick out of its slot. Those bases look horribly small as well with a 1.2 m lever attached. Personally I'd look for bases that would allow fixing to the centerish of two bricks and have some diagonal bracing to the rail. I do have tendancy to over engineer things...

Take it steady with a proper tile drill (no hammer action!) and it shouldn't be a problem. Clearance hole for the fixing. Do you know what's underneath the tiles? Hopefully it's rubble infilled with concrete to a solid lump. That would provide a much firmer fixing than either of the bricks.

I was going to suggest something like:
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
But you haven't a real wall to fix it to.
--
Cheers
Dave.
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On 02/08/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Those look a bit like quarry tiles, in which case they may be a bugger to drill using an ordinary carbide bit.

We could do with a wider view of the layout, there might be other ways to create a suitable handrail supported away from those steps (or at any rate not imposing significant moments or sideways loads on them if called on to support a tripping body).
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On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:09:13 +0100, newshound wrote:

Probably are but still drillable provided you take it easy and use water as a lubricant/coolant if required.

Agreed we only see two of the three steps mentioned.
--
Cheers
Dave.
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On 02/08/2020 13:09, newshound wrote:

Your wish is my command... <https://ibb.co/25k41g3
Sorry about the plants in the way!
The concrete at the base of the steps is strong and thick, so the bottom post would be very stable when screwed to it. The first step "plinth" is 3750 x 930 mm (there is a wall on the left side that can't be seen in the photo). The next step is 1430 x 680, and the top step is 910 x 42.
Many thanks for all the replies. I'd forgotten about concrete screws, and I hadn't taken into account that vertical brick might move out with a strong sideways moment on it. A "Z" bracket would help, but that would need drilling into the tile below, and as I've said I'm not keen on that. I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet. That would almost certainly mean a bespoke handrail construction and even the "ready to use" ones aren't exactly cheap! However, it's not the sort of thing where an "it'll do..." attitude should apply.
--

Jeff

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On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:

It would.
I'd suggest an L fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed into the pat h concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and tiles completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily patched when the rail is remov ed.
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg
A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you, or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.
https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps
Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable angle fitting and looking neater.
Owain
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On Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:55:51 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

A couple of examples in their gallery
https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/up/images/15072/image.jpg
https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/gallery/main
Owain
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On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:59:47 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Wouldn't you have brushed it all down before stepping back to take the picture? ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On 02/08/2020 15:55, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Exactly what I was going to suggest the moment I saw the picture!
I used key clamp for the steps of my late parents victorian basement flat (where it wasn't very visible and didn't need to look pretty). Also Key Clamp is relatively easy to remove.
In your case I would probably consider getting a blacksmith to make something prettier. What they'd charge depends on what they think you are able to pay.
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On 02/08/2020 15:55, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive, and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say about it.
I'll have a think about how to proceed. One possibility is to have the fixing plate for the wall on a pivot in the same way that the rail itself can pivot on the post tops for varying heights such as shown at <https://blackbourneiron.co.uk/collections/home-furniture-diy-storage-solutions-wall-hooks-door-hangers/products/wrought-iron-handrail-on-two-bolt-down-posts-adjustable
--

Jeff

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On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:41:26 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:

You could paint it to match the door colour, and especially if you put a mid-height rail use that to support some potplants (on the outside away from the step.)
Owain
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On the assumption that under the tiles there is some depth of a concrete or mortar bed onto which the tiles are bedded, then one option is to attach e xtension plates to the existing bases which would overlap onto the tiles to enable fixing holes in the tiles. Core drills will cut through the tiles a nd it is possible to get quite small diameter ones. To drill without a pilo t drill is simple using a wooden template with a hole matching the core dri ll.
Richard
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On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:49:34 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

But painting galvanised tube needs proper treatment. I am looking to do a very small amount in the next week or two. Anyone got good, simple, cheap suggestions?
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We have a safety barrier at our Village Hall made of this. A covering of coloured tape, as we've done, might enhance it. You can get it pre-coated to a colour.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
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On 02/08/2020 18:41, Jeff Layman wrote:

Suitable L shaped bracket bolted to the wall, to give you a place to bolt the foot of the "off the shelf" unit?
Or (to paraphrase Brad Paisley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v
_FN4ygjTo
Get you a welder, learn how to weld
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