efficient heating

snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

Actually,if they are 15 ft thick, they are pretty good :-)

I wonder when it will become standard practice to have loads of zones each with its motorized valve, and a remote radio stat.

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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:06:03 +0000 The Natural Philosopher wrote :

I'm not sure about loads, since that implies lots of programmer setting, but my place - a long narrow flat - is split into a living and bedroom zone with two CM67s and it works brilliantly - background heat only in the bedroom until late evening, earlier start in the bedroom than in the living zone. New houses larger than 150m2 (not many round here!) are required to have at least two independent zones.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk


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Might be worth it if you have self closing doors everywhere and each room well insulated from the next. And don't mind a room being cold when you enter it - the idea of bedrooms never being used other than to sleep in seems strange to me - don't most use them for changing clothes etc after work? Kids as a study/playroom? So if you arrange for the general temperature of the house to be lower during the day I wonder just what savings zoning would achieve in the average house with average use? And the fact that dribble likes it is another kiss of death...
--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Dave Plowman (News) wrote :

But if you've got CM67 type control it's not a question of hot or cold, but having the option of background heat too. It's (IMO) nice to have a warm bedroom last thing at nice and in the morning, but 16 is fine for most of the evening.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk


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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Well opening a door just means one zone will open up and the nextdoor one shut down..
and with a stat in every room you can turn it up or down for raping the au pair, or putting the kids to bed, whatever..;-)
I agree that fact that dribble likes it is the single worts thing to have held against it tho. Suppose he came visiting and wouldn't go?
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It all depends. In some houses with no insulayion between rooms here, if one room is turned off the room temp drops quite a lot, so theres still plenty of saving to be had. It wont go cold, but down 4 degrees maybe, it all reduces losses.

50% of houses dont get average use, if those quartiles see decent savings that may make it worth it.
NT
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I already drop the overall house temperature by 5 degrees for daytime. I doubt the bedrooms would drop much further than that most days.

Maybe.
--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:06:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is a trend in some of the new flats being built now. Each rooms has a wall stat or prog stat. Each room has wet UFH and each room is a zone. The supply for the UFH is from a large thermal store heated by over-night electric.
The standard of insulation is very high and the number do add up (which is some what irksome for a gas installer to admit).
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
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And looks crap - a Heath Robinson approach. Have you figured out how much these 8, 9, 10 transformers hanging out of sockets, emitting heat will cost to run?
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each = 18w = 0.18p/day. In pracitce it'll be less as they wont be powering the valve all the time.
NT
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for new systems.
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The exchanger is not the big draw-back, it is boiler design overall. Old cast-iron gas boilers with balanced flues would pour heat out of the flue wasting heat, when the burner was off. So, between each frequent boiler cycle great heat loss. A thermal store attached to these old boilers eliminating cycling improves efficiency a hell of a lot, as they have one long burn.
Fan flues improved matters a lot and having extended flues, so heat doesn't easily escape when the burner is off helps again. A large water jacket in a boiler with a fanned flue and long flue lengths reduces boiler cycling.
Small capacity tubed heat exchanger boilers came in to reduce size and get them wall mounted to easily fit in small homes. Oil boilers still had large water jackets while gas boilers virtually eliminated them. These large water jackets were enlarged in oil boilers and used as thermal stores for instant water heating. Some oil combis have quite decent flowrates. The extra water mass reduced inefficient burner cycling too.
IMI introduced the Powermax. A non-condensing boiler with large water jacket (thermal store). The flue/exchanger ran up the centre of the thermal store. The heating and instant DHW ran off this store of water. Heat did escape up the flue, however long flues made it more efficient. The current Potterton Powermax is totally different to the IMI original.
ACV have now introduced a large stainless steel water jacket in the condensing HeatMaster boiler with the burner at the top and the exchanger/flue down the centre and exiting at the bottom. No heat floats out the top and through the open flue when the burner is off as did with the original Powermax. The water jacket (thermal store) supplies the heating directly and a cylinder is immersed inside the water jacket for DHW. Efficiencies and recovery rates are very high and all in one box. There are oil versions I believe by replacing the burner.
So, large water jacketed heat exchangers are not inefficient in themselves. It is the total boiler package that matters. Other one-box solution boilers have thermal stores/heat banks inside, but these are separate boilers with their own small water capacity tubed heat exchangers and a separate cylinder. The water mass in the cylinder is not the boilers water jacket.
The ACV points the way back to large water jacket heat exchanger gas boilers, with the water jacket eliminating the need for a separate water stored water vessel.
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snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com wrote:

In order of increasing initial cost/difficulty:
-1. Turn thermostat down and wear more clothes.
0. Insulating jacket on hot water cylinder (although heat lost from here contributes to warming the house).
1. Draughtproofing doors, windows, letterbox.
NB clear plastic semi-rigid sheet over windows can be effective at low cost. Interlining curtains with bubble-wrap ditto.
2. Loft insulation.
3. Lag pipes not in the heating area (these are likely to be less accessible than the loft).
Owain
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On Feb 9, 6:49 am, snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com wrote:

Yes - my recommendation supplement your boiler's work heating your water using a solar thermal collector.
All the details are at www.growyourownenergy.co.uk
The site can tell you how much money you are likely to make. It will pay for itself and make a you profit in gas bill savings (future heating oil prices assumed)
My quick calculation is a tax free profit of 7,105 or a 7.1% return - compare 7.1% to what you could get in bank interest!
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Grow Your Own Energy wrote:

Until the Chancellor decides that all homes are deemed to have a solar panel and must pay a tax on the theoretical energy obtained.
Owain
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On 9 Feb 2007 04:29:35 -0800, "Grow Your Own Energy"
How on earth do you come up with that figure?
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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tablets
NT
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On 9 Feb, 06:49, snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com wrote:

Knowing which make and model and age of oil boiler you have might help in giving sensible advice. Is your hot water cylinder insulated and is it controlled or a gravity system. The solid stone walls sound dreadfully lossy as does the single glazing. Is the loft insulated?
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My comments & suggestions:
Eliminate draughts and improve insulation where pratical.
Fit a modern condensing boiler if you can easily dispose of the condensate. (You dont describe your existing boiler)
Fit a programmable thermostat so that you can vary the temperature during the day, but don't fit TRVs as these try to maintain a constant temp.
Use a 'double insulated' (50mm foam) H/W tank.
My oil consumption in perhaps a similar size house is about half yours.
--

Michael Chare




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The norm in Germany is 100mm min'.
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