Do I evict the squirrel?

[fred]

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the mice and shovel follow-up story.

[Bob Martin]

Yes, I would. I kept pet white rats when I was at school.

[Bob Martin]

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and what isn't? Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"? In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to another creature is "vermin".

[Frank Erskine]

Hear hear.

[Dave Liquorice]

To some extent it's laid down in law but not very well. A very quick google finds this Hansard entry:

8 Oct 2003 : Column WA60 Vermin

Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as "vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law. In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels, rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels, dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of other species are excluded.

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is that "necessary"?

[Dean Heighington]

diary products squirrel fur journal anyone? ;)

I'm toying with the idea of annexing off the loft and creating a 'box' for the fella, as was suggested earlier in this thread and I also considered at the outset, so it was nice to know that 'another' had the same musings and rendered me sane, at least partially :)

I have heard from a friend who ended up exterminating a treerat in his loft after attempts to gently remove it nearly ended up with him being facially disfigured... a chainsaw mask and welders gloves seem sensible when faced with a cornered squirrel, on all fours, in a tight space

:)

[Tim Lamb]

Why not wait until it is busy elsewhere before barricading the access?

As others have said, you really need to check for dependant offspring.

regards

[Tim Lamb]

I guess people whose livelihood is/was affected by the activities of other creatures. Now that we mostly live remotely from any aspect of food production other views can flourish.

Umm.. I suppose mice sharing your breakfast cereals or Squirrels potentially destroying the cables in the loft can be a personal choice. However, when it comes to producing and storing food I'm happy with the current rules.

OK on unnecessary pain/suffering but death? How many ants do you unwittingly kill crossing your lawn? Do you stop eating rice because of the creatures killed in production?

regards

[ARWadsworth]

How can anyone be a vegan when such things as bacon sandwiches exist?

[fred]

Start with destruction of crops or property and move on from there.

Oh, boo hoo, you're not a bad person for accidentally killing those squirrels and who said anything about causing intentional or unnecessary suffering?

[fred]

Or muslim for that matter, one such chum has confessed that it is a weakness of his.

[deano]

Yeah, that makes sense. I was going to probe around with a long batten while my son watched the exit point for the bugger to vacate... then up into the loft to check for babies and then, while he's out, put in the box or cap off the soffits to keep him out... still pondering how much time to spend in cramped loft :) Especially if there are no little ones and he can relocate in these warmer months.

FWIW: I remember someone telling me (when I first discussed the cable chewing incident in the pub) that using LowSmoke cable discourages rodents from eating through it because it doesn't use the same kind of oils used in its production as normal cable insulation, which they like to chomp on.

A quick google to quantify this doesn't return much and the other theory is that they use the cable as a "teething ring". Especially the young 'uns which would explain why only the length of cable, between the joists, in front of the nest was stripped!?

Google did however, also throw up this...

makes me a little happier about my own small problem and less inclined to exterminate the sod!

[dennis]

There is no such thing as a vegan (only people that think they are vegans).. look at the stuff made from animal stuff and ask how they can avoid it..

tallow in fabric softeners rules out any shop bought cloths. cattle hooves in fire fighting foam rules out air transport of anything they use (like computer bits to read this post). and that's just the start. end of veganism in the UK.

[Man at B&Q]

Who decides what is neccessary or unneccessary?

MBQ

[ARWadsworth]

I agree. Vegans are either stupid, students or hippies. Or a combination of that list.

[Steve Walker]

The species which best fits the label is the human being. "We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are" Bill Hicks, RIP

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Gareth" saying something like:

painless.

[Dave Liquorice]

These days with CATs? Car exhaust pre CATs was full of carbon monoxide like town gas which was also not healthy to breath. You don't hear of suicide by car exhaust much these days, so I wonder if it is no longer that effective. Of course there is much reduced oxygen but are the levels low enough to cause death? CO is toxic it binds to the hemoglobin preventing it taking up oxygen which is what it is supposed to do.

[Andy Champ]

Post-CAT exhaust is low in oxygen (which would kill you) but also very high in CO2 (which you notice). Gassing yourself with post-CAT exhaust would be little more effective than just putting a plastic bag over your head. Pretty unpleasant.

Andy