Concrete floor - Unsupported right angle in RSJ (s) to support upstairs rooms

[Su]

Hello, I want to take down the walls between my kitchen and my dining area of my through sitting/dining room. I am unsure whether this wall is a supporting wall. The RSJ could sit on a column of interior wall left at the end wall of the house and extend inwards perpendicular to the outside wall of the house. The other RSJ could be supported on the corner of the wall of the garage which is inline with the kitchen door, so forming an unsupported right angle instead of the dining area wall and the wall with the kitchen door. I don't want to have to put a column under this right angle joint in the RSJs as this would defeat the purpose of removing the walls. I saw a similar unsupported right angle RSJs on George Clarke's Ugly house to Beautiful house recently. How much do you think the RSJs would cost and the building work required?

[tabbypurr]

tell me this is a wind-up.

[Brian Gaff]

That sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me, unless you have not explained it very well! Brian

[Brian Gaff]

If she has invented a Sky hook I need one myself. Brian

[spuorgelgoog]

About £45,000.

You're lucky it was George Clarke. If it had been Kevin McLeod it would be £85,000.

Owain

[newshound]

I havn't quite unravelled the geometry. There is one case where an (apparently) unsupported right angle might be justifiable, and that is where there is a long RSJ on piers or a wall, possibly with a wall on top of that (providing more weight). One (or both) ends could then be extended a limited distance as a cantilever(s) supporting another RSJ at right angles. In fact an RSJ could be supported on a pair of cantilevers (think Car Port, if you like).

Only a structural engineer could tell you whether such a structure would be compliant with building regs and it would all depend on the detail.

But it is not uncommon in industry, for example to provide a rail for a small travelling hoist. You need more steel than you would for a more conventional braced (triangulated) structure, but it can be done.

[Roger Hayter]

Might work if each RSJ extends out of the wall by about 10 feet and is fixed to a large ground anchor.

[sm_jamieson]

Common on a small scale in lots of corner shops with a door on the diagonal across the corner, and normal corner above. As said, it is a cantilever which need enough downward force on the supported section - this could be supplied by weight above or something fixed to the ground the pull the supported section down. Also the length and leverage of the supported section is relevant. Basically, consult a structural engineer. Simon.

[Andrew]

She needs to suspend the unsupported corner where two RSJs meet from the roof trusses above :-)

[Andrew]

Previous houses shown on George Clarke series have fallen foul of basic errors in building regs, which is odd for an architect.

[dennis]

architects don't always do the structural stuff and when they do they frequently do it wrong.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Any worthy of the name gets a structural engineer to do the calculations and working drawings.

[Andrew]

The house in question had an extension and the upper floor ceiling opened up to give a vaulted ceiling and mezzanine.

The failure was not structural but non-compliance with some aspects of fire safety or thermal regs.

[Tricky Dicky]

A friend had a house with an L-shaped lounge dining area, with the two internal walls of the L being the kitchen. He wanted to convert then kitchen adding part of the dining area to the kitchen and at the same time narrowing the kitchen so both rooms became rectangular along side each other. As the original kitchen walls supported other walls above he had to provide RSJs for that purpose. One RSJ went from one outer wall to another whilst the second RSJ was bolted to the first and extended T-shaped to another outer wall. I do not know if this is similar to what the OP wants as I could not fully make out what she had in mind, all I know that my friends T arrangement was kosher and he was able to show me the structural engineers drawings and calculations.

Richard