That assumes the chopper can land next to the chimney which is very unlikely. And they don?t like the idea of effectively chaining the chopper to the ground either, very dangerous to do that.
It can't be too bad given that there was temporary ladders there.
"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:qpec7t$t8j$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:
Totally agree Brian. Fires inside and up the stairwell were anticipated - not fires up the exterior.
I've certainly worked in offices where the stairwells are designated refuges. In the event of fire. People are supposed to get themselves out, but to leave anyone with a disability on the (large) landings to wait for either the fire marshals or the emergency services to bring them down.
SteveW
I worked with a guy who had brittle bone disease and used a wheelchair. In the event of a fire, we were supposed to make our way down the staircases (one at each end of the building) but leave the wheelchair guy behind in the lift lobby. Whenever we had a fire drill, he always used to say "don't forget me - remember to tell someone that I'm here". It felt wrong to "abandon" him. In the event of a real fire, I'd make damn sure that I sought out the nearest fireman and told them, and I bet everyone else would have done the same. Of course, the danger is if everyone thinks that someone else will do it... and it ends up with no-one telling the fire fighters.
At another company, with just two floors, a guy in a wheelchair was supposed to be carried down in a sling, with six people (the fire marshals) around the edge each taking some of his weight. Thankfully we never had to put this into practice, because he was a fairly big chap and he would have been a fair weight to carry. I sometimes used to help him get out of his car - fetch electric wheelchair from boot, then brace the car door while he pulled on it to swing round, lever himself into a standing position, swing round a bit more and then lower himself into the chair. He said the hinges on the car door didn't last long and the door pillar had to be strengthened. And all because of motorbike accident many years earlier...
I'm sure a breakaway cable could be fashioned ...
But I take your point. I'm not a helicopter pilot. Nor indeed a pilot of any description.
I wonder what the practicalities of some sort of inflatable cuff that could have been pushed up the chimney and angled to catch/support someone are ?
The problem is this situation is unlikely to recur in anyones lifetime.
I wondered about a tannoy on a fire engine "broadcasting" to everyone in the building, but I bet even that wouldn't be heard.
The whole concept of "stay put in the event of a fire" seems to be in direct contravention of the instructions that you hear (eg in public information films, in the days when those were shown on TV) "Get out, and stay out". Thankfully a lot of people disregarded the instructions - which was the right thing to do *in that situation*.
A building with only one staircase seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Even our 10-storey office block had two - one at each end of the building.
They put a Sea King down into the primary school playing field with not much more than 10' from rotor tips to trees. It then suffered a "flat battery" and sat there for half a day whilst a genset was driven up to start it. B-)
There is a wide main road just next to the chimney base.
Agreed, not to mention you won't really have enough angle from bod
100' from the helo down 300' to gain much control.Pushed up 300' with a flu 17'6" in dia? Dixons chimney is not a little chimney. The walls at the base are 10' thick...
Agreed which is why the rescue services don't need 90m + cherry pickers as part of their kit. A database of commercial companies who do on the other hand...
Problem is that its very difficult to control the chopper when doing that. Its bad enough when a decent load like say a field gun comes out of its sling when being choppered.
Very difficult to get it around the chimney before inflating it.
And not really feasible to train for either.
Maybe he just wanted to hang around.
In article <qpe3a4$e3j$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me, Harry Bloomfield <?.?@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> scribeth thus
Well they do this sort of with broadcast aerials in remote locations inc the UK a few years ago, but the down draft is quite a bit, been under a helicopter around a 100 feet or so and its quite a wind. However if that man was experienced in "aerial" rescue operations, had a safety harness on then possible but this guy just climbed up there was mentally ill so it would have been very risky indeed for him.
Heres a vid of what they do do with helicopters and the down draft is there but these men are well experienced in this sort of operation but for matey the other day different matter poor sod!..
In message snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net>, at 05:31:59 on Fri, 1 Nov
2019, Rod Speed snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com remarked:
They were both repeatedly calling in, and hanging on the line.
They received hundreds of 999 calls.
I always read a book on the train, I got through "Danubia" in around 2 months, a title that definitely deserved better treatment than it got from the publisher by way of colour illustrations, maps, lists etc. Free newspapers really are the last resort of the terminally bored. Most people are using their phones or laptops in any case.
Given all the questions that remain to be answered, if they ever will there's no reason to claim that anything should necessarily have been done any differently. Might there have been a stampede with people crushed etc etc ? Anyone whose working life can involve making life and death decisions needs to adopt a stone cold attitude to all such decisions otherwise they'd soon mess up, and get eaten up in the process. The same goes for the medical profession - as soon as a surgeon stops regarding operations as technical challenges involving pieces of meat and patients as ongoing experiments they're in trouble. The fact that Joe Public so easily mistakes this for callous indifference is merely a symptom of the media propagating an atmosphere of overweening sentimentality in pursuit of inclusive "human interest" stories with which everyone, most especially those at the back of the class can readily identify.
He simply slipped backwards possibly as the ladder became detached
Although I'm pretty sure I saw one reference to his being drunk I very much doubt he could have successfully scaled the chimney in that condition unless it was very slow acting alcohol The point I'm making is that such "facts" are irrelevant to the actual problem of rescuing him from the chimney. Whereas in mentioning them at all there may be a suggestion that a) it was all his own fault anyway, and b) being mentally unstable and possibly drunk he presented extra danger to the rescuers. Both of which considerations are as I say totally irrelevant.
michael adams
....
The skill of air-sea rescue and air-ambulance pilots, and the risks that they are prepared to take, is astounding. I've read reports of helicopters hovering with a few inches between the blade tips and a cliff face - in gusty weather when the slightest gust towards the cliff, if not immediately corrected by the pilot, would spell disaster. Likewise for landing on a road, avoiding trees, telegraph pole and lamp poles.
Bethnal Green tube station in 1943 showed that happens when someone trips during a panic evacuation down a staircase. I imagine that is at the back of the mind of everyone involved in any similar evacuation down a staircase.
One thing that the fire brigade *might* have done differently is using firemen on each floor as "marshals" to regulate the flow of people down the staircase to lessen the chance of stampede. If they did do that, I've not heard it mentioned anywhere.
I agree that the reason why he climbed the ladders was irrelevant to the rescue, but the possibility that his mental / drunk state may present additional risks both to him and his rescuers was very relevant to the rescue plan, the same way that the fact he was upside-down (presumably with a leg hooked around a rung) was a material fact that made his rescue (and his chance of survival) more of a problem.
Many years ago, when I lived in Harrow, I was amazed to learn an air ambulance had managed to land on the A312 Northolt Road. Admittedly an A road, but with a corridor of trees and buildings.
But were they aware of any of this at the time ?
Had they even identified him, yet alone accessed his medical history ? While the undoubted fact that he was able to climb the chimney in the first place strongly mitigates against any possibility of his being drunk, I would have thought.
That was my point. All this came out *afterwards* which is why it was irrelevant at the time and why it is still irrelevant. Except that people are being led to believe that it was known at the time, when it wasn't.
In fact it would be interesting to know how any evidence of his being drunk first arose. As he had a history of mental problems possibly his "loved ones" were of no great help in the matter, and possibly wouldn't have objected had the suggestion been put to them by any of the reptiles.
michael adams
...
In message <qpl3ke$490$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me, at 23:31:26 on Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Steve Walker snipped-for-privacy@walker-family.me.uk> remarked:
Also perhaps for the commander on the ground not having had appropriate training (which is a senior management issue again).
But the main thing to bear in mind is that the public's anger has been [mis]directed at the report, because they erroneously think it was criticising the men running into the burning building.
Only slightly more than the value of Chief Fire Officer Dani's (council taxpayer funded) pension.
Not much use if you cannot get it near enough to the building or even through Londons congested and narrow streets.
LFB should have realised that this was not a compartmentalised fire the moment they arrived and started evacuating immediately.
According to Lord Rees-Mogg, probably not.
Turns out the residents were a bit thick to do what the fire brigade said
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