With all this talk of insulation, is it workable to cavity insulate stone walls with random cavity? I would have thought so, though expect a lot of filing holes would be needed. But I know its advised not to cavity insulate some wall types.
NT
Cavity insulating stone walls
With all this talk of insulation, is it workable to cavity insulate stone walls with random cavity? I would have thought so, though expect a lot of filing holes would be needed. But I know its advised not to cavity insulate some wall types.
NT
definately not.
A housing estate was insulated in Scotland (new build) and was later found to have undressed stone on the cavity side....after six months or so all the houses got damp, and I mean seriously damp, fungus growing outof walls, timbers rotting everywhere, the rsidents had to move out while the houses were ripped apart and the insulation removed.
The *minimum* cavity size to be filled must be at least 50mm, with undressed stone this is impossible to gauge, some places it might be 75mm and others only 35mm...it just doesn't fill and water ingress is the result.
Phil L wrote:
So what you are saying is that all cavity fills are likely to cause problems but that with a wide enough span, most homes get away with it?
Whilst it explains the uselessness of modern cill board sizes, it doesn't alleviate fears of TB resurgence. I get the impression some of us are living in time bombs.
Is it really so?
Check your brickwork with an hose pipe. If some of the bricks are upside down it will show. Most face bricks are designed to shed water. I doubt it is crucial but in a frost....
(Just thought I'd frighten you while we are telling horror stories. And now children: Good night!)
So what you are saying is that all cavity fills are likely to cause problems but that with a wide enough span, most homes get away with it?
Whilst it explains the uselessness of modern cill board sizes, it doesn't alleviate fears of TB resurgence. I get the impression some of us are living in time bombs.
Is it really so?
Check your brickwork with an hose pipe. If some of the bricks are upside down it will show. Most face bricks are designed to shed water. I doubt it is crucial but in a frost....
(Just thought I'd frighten you while we are telling horror stories. And now children: Good night!)
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Most homes have a cavity of 50mm or more, CWI isn't garuanteed under this thickness so no (registered) installer would do it, and certainly not undressed stone....it's possible to get it done as a foreigner, cash only, no garuantee etc, and then twelve months later pay about 5K to have it all removed.
No. Almost all CWI installers have insurance backed 25 year garuantees issued by CIGA http://www.ciga.co.uk / Who are independant of the CWI industry, meaning that even work completed by companies who have long since gone out of buisness is still covered.
Any jobs done during the 'cowboy' period during the late seventies will either have been repaired or demolished before now, and it's a requirement during house purchases to provide the garuantee, so it's unlikely many houses are 'timebombs', given that problems will show themselves within weeks or months of CWI installation.
I've made a small jpeg to show what I mean:
http://i1.tinypic.com/rvybgy.jpg
Most homes have a cavity of 50mm or more, CWI isn't garuanteed under this thickness so no (registered) installer would do it, and certainly not undressed stone....it's possible to get it done as a foreigner, cash only, no garuantee etc, and then twelve months later pay about 5K to have it all removed.
No. Almost all CWI installers have insurance backed 25 year garuantees issued by CIGA http://www.ciga.co.uk / Who are independant of the CWI industry, meaning that even work completed by companies who have long since gone out of buisness is still covered.
Any jobs done during the 'cowboy' period during the late seventies will either have been repaired or demolished before now, and it's a requirement during house purchases to provide the garuantee, so it's unlikely many houses are 'timebombs', given that problems will show themselves within weeks or months of CWI installation.
I've made a small jpeg to show what I mean:
Phil L wrote:
"We've lost it" is usually sufficient ;-)
MBQ
"We've lost it" is usually sufficient ;-)
MBQ
Phil L wrote:
Hi again.
I realise it would only partially fill, leaving voids, but this is still of value insulationwise. The voids would see less air movement as a result of the cwi, so even there the heat loss would go down.
Doing the job would not be hard, just a case of drilling many holes and using an old fashioned double ended hoover with a box in the tubeway to allow fibres to be put in the airstream. Certainly not as easy as standard cwi, slow but doable. I wouldnt expect contractors to do it.
Damp is the question. First I dont understand how whats in the cavity could in any way cause water ingress. Ingress I would have thought would be determined by the outer faces of the wall. Second, how does the presence of a patch of fibreglass cause water to move across from outer to inner leaf? Polystyrene would, as it soaks up water, but surely not fibreglass, which afaik doesnt.
Puzzled of Tunbridge Wells.
Hi again.
I realise it would only partially fill, leaving voids, but this is still of value insulationwise. The voids would see less air movement as a result of the cwi, so even there the heat loss would go down.
Doing the job would not be hard, just a case of drilling many holes and using an old fashioned double ended hoover with a box in the tubeway to allow fibres to be put in the airstream. Certainly not as easy as standard cwi, slow but doable. I wouldnt expect contractors to do it.
Damp is the question. First I dont understand how whats in the cavity could in any way cause water ingress. Ingress I would have thought would be determined by the outer faces of the wall. Second, how does the presence of a patch of fibreglass cause water to move across from outer to inner leaf? Polystyrene would, as it soaks up water, but surely not fibreglass, which afaik doesnt.
Puzzled of Tunbridge Wells.
snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:
It wouldn't even be noticable, sort of putting small squares of loft insulation down haphazzardly in the loft instead of covering the whole area.
An easier method would be to stud the wall and insulate behind the studding, and no possibility of damp penetration.
Polystyrene? it doesn't soak up water at all, fibreglass does, but only the stuff you would see in your loft, not the treated stuff used for CWI.
Water runs down the inside of your exterior brick/stonework during heavy rain...if you could take down the inner leaf and look at the stonework during a rainstorm you would see a mini waterfall! - this is normal and the cavity stops anything getting to the inner leaf, this is why brick ties have a twist or a bump in the centre, to allow water to drain down the cavity.
I've done a diagram and put it up on tinypic:
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=rw5uyq
It wouldn't even be noticable, sort of putting small squares of loft insulation down haphazzardly in the loft instead of covering the whole area.
An easier method would be to stud the wall and insulate behind the studding, and no possibility of damp penetration.
Polystyrene? it doesn't soak up water at all, fibreglass does, but only the stuff you would see in your loft, not the treated stuff used for CWI.
Water runs down the inside of your exterior brick/stonework during heavy rain...if you could take down the inner leaf and look at the stonework during a rainstorm you would see a mini waterfall! - this is normal and the cavity stops anything getting to the inner leaf, this is why brick ties have a twist or a bump in the centre, to allow water to drain down the cavity.
I've done a diagram and put it up on tinypic:
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=rw5uyq
Phil L wrote:
It bloody well should NOT. If it is you have a serious problem.
Or airbricks...
It bloody well should NOT. If it is you have a serious problem.
Or airbricks...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Whether it should or it shouldn't is irrelevant, and on some walls it will while on other walls...you get the picture, it all depends which way the wind blows, how many cracks are in the mortar (quite a lot in most houses, even new ones) and a hundred other factors, none of this is a serious problem though, until something blocks the water's natural course and it gets where it shouldn't.
Whether it should or it shouldn't is irrelevant, and on some walls it will while on other walls...you get the picture, it all depends which way the wind blows, how many cracks are in the mortar (quite a lot in most houses, even new ones) and a hundred other factors, none of this is a serious problem though, until something blocks the water's natural course and it gets where it shouldn't.
Though provision is made here http://tinyurl.com/ozshd on page 37ish for not filling cavities right up to the oustide leaf in many parts of the country because of the risk of water penetration.
--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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Guy King wrote:
I thinkthat refers to filling the width of the cavity rather than the height, IE putting a 35mm insulation board inside a 70mm cavity, keeping it away from outer leaf for this very reason.
Filling the cavity after construction (the method discussed in this thread) is covered on poage 34:
c) Other insulating materials inserted into the cavity after the wall has been constructed should have certification from an appropriate body and be installed in accordance with the appropriate installations code. The suitability of the wall for filling is to be assessed before the work is carried out and the person undertaking the work should operate under an Approved Installer Scheme that includes an assessment of capability. -------------------------------------------------------------------
No accredited or approved company will fill a house built with undressed stone in the cavity, nor would it be garuanteed if they did.
I thinkthat refers to filling the width of the cavity rather than the height, IE putting a 35mm insulation board inside a 70mm cavity, keeping it away from outer leaf for this very reason.
Filling the cavity after construction (the method discussed in this thread) is covered on poage 34:
c) Other insulating materials inserted into the cavity after the wall has been constructed should have certification from an appropriate body and be installed in accordance with the appropriate installations code. The suitability of the wall for filling is to be assessed before the work is carried out and the person undertaking the work should operate under an Approved Installer Scheme that includes an assessment of capability. -------------------------------------------------------------------
No accredited or approved company will fill a house built with undressed stone in the cavity, nor would it be garuanteed if they did.
Phil L wrote:
ty, I get it. I presume some walls do get running water, some dont. Now I see why ratbond should also not be cwi'ed
NT
ty, I get it. I presume some walls do get running water, some dont. Now I see why ratbond should also not be cwi'ed
NT
Second, how does
Polystyrene is impermeable.Even foam. Thats why they make buoys out of it.
Glass fibre is like any fibre, capillary action causes it to transfer moisture.
However, I don't see how the cavity would get wet either unless the rain is pissing down the outside and its full of soft permeable mortar - or made of soft permeable rock, like clunch.
Perhaps the issue is that some stone hoses have no DPC and need to let internal moisture get out...
Polystyrene is impermeable.Even foam. Thats why they make buoys out of it.
Glass fibre is like any fibre, capillary action causes it to transfer moisture.
However, I don't see how the cavity would get wet either unless the rain is pissing down the outside and its full of soft permeable mortar - or made of soft permeable rock, like clunch.
Perhaps the issue is that some stone hoses have no DPC and need to let internal moisture get out...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
there are 2 types, most is the waterloggable type. While its somewhat water repellant, that doesnt always prevent saturation, depends on the situation.
So a clunch wall with soft lime antique mortar, complete with cracks splits and holes would not be ideal for cwi :)
I dont think I've ever seen a stone wall with dpc. Doubtless they exist, but most stone walls are historic.
NT
there are 2 types, most is the waterloggable type. While its somewhat water repellant, that doesnt always prevent saturation, depends on the situation.
So a clunch wall with soft lime antique mortar, complete with cracks splits and holes would not be ideal for cwi :)
I dont think I've ever seen a stone wall with dpc. Doubtless they exist, but most stone walls are historic.
NT
snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:
You're right :-) We put DPCs in all new stone walls. We also put one in an old house but did it whilst underpinning.. Not easy, but doable.
Yes.
-- Holly, in France Gite to let in Dordogne, now with pool. http://la-plaine.chez-alice.fr
You're right :-) We put DPCs in all new stone walls. We also put one in an old house but did it whilst underpinning.. Not easy, but doable.
Yes.
-- Holly, in France Gite to let in Dordogne, now with pool. http://la-plaine.chez-alice.fr
There are differing build techniques with stone depending on the type
of stone - compare for instance the small slab stones on the
Northumberland moors with the great chunks of granite in Aberdeen.
In my own cottage - sand stone and whin - the walls are approaching 3 ft thick and consist of outer and inner skins of large stones with lime mortar, and all the rubbish - and that is what it was called - goes into the middle without any mortar. It's a real pain when you are making a hole right through for pipes,etc as the small stones just keep on falling down.
Now to insulation - the original stone floors were replaced in the 20's with fully vented wooden floors and the walls were lath and plastered. Unfortunately they hadn't heard of insulation then and all the underfloor ventilation went up to the roof space behind the L & P; result freezing cold rooms permanently. So off with the L & P - restrap, rockwool, membrane, plasterboard; result warm house. That's the way to go but it is possible that may not work for you.
Rob
In my own cottage - sand stone and whin - the walls are approaching 3 ft thick and consist of outer and inner skins of large stones with lime mortar, and all the rubbish - and that is what it was called - goes into the middle without any mortar. It's a real pain when you are making a hole right through for pipes,etc as the small stones just keep on falling down.
Now to insulation - the original stone floors were replaced in the 20's with fully vented wooden floors and the walls were lath and plastered. Unfortunately they hadn't heard of insulation then and all the underfloor ventilation went up to the roof space behind the L & P; result freezing cold rooms permanently. So off with the L & P - restrap, rockwool, membrane, plasterboard; result warm house. That's the way to go but it is possible that may not work for you.
Rob
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