Cat5e or what?

Hi All,
A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me what he should do about running network points around the shop.
He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re the network cabling.
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward to use and more 'future proof please?
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as the cable runs).
Cheers, T i m
p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc) please?
p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)
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T i m wrote:

cat5e is good up to gigabit, but can't see him needing faster than 10/100 really, if he goes for cat6 the cable needs larger band radius and is thicker, also outlets and patch panels may be more expensive.
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

me

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four pairs).

And is less tolerant of being pulled and kinked during installation. CAT5e will be fine but ensure it is copper not CCS or CCA. Might be worth checking if the CCTV is going to use PoE IP cameras or coax and twisted pair. Personally I'd be looking hard at IP based CCTV solutions, there are some pretty highspec cameras out there for not many pennies. Ones with on board recording, PIR detection, IR illumination, 3 M pixel or more resolution.
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On Wednesday, 27 January 2016 10:58:05 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:

That's what I did. Of course I've had to do more wiring since, as 2 per point proved inadequate. I'll try not to make that mistake next time.
NT
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On 27/01/16 12:52, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

IME Don't really need to go much beyond four per point for normal business users.
1. Printer 2. Desktop 3. Adhoc Laptop 4. Phone
However I once worked on an office build where 2 points were provided for PCs and Phones. They'd forgotten each user had their own laser printer which (due to the house system software) had to be installed networked.
Opps.
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On 27/01/2016 13:37, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

To my mind, there's always a power supply at every data outlet and when a 4 port Gigabit switch costs less than £20 there's little point in running loads of extra wire. Far neater to have a single wire coming out of the wall to a switch hidden behind something.
:)
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That.
If we were short of ports in a location, I got the uni's infrastructure dept to call the cabling installers to come and run in a few more.
Users were prohibited from splitting network ports by using switches. These were flagged up on the monitoring systems and appropriate LARTs applied.
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snipped-for-privacy@gowanhill.com wrote:

Also multiple ethernet ports mean you can segment the network: not put the doorbell on the same network as the banking data. You can do that on a switch with VLANs, but to do that you need a more expensive switch.
Theo
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On 29/01/16 00:33, Theo wrote:

Can you put that in simple English that a a mere professional IT network engineer can understand?
What are 'multiple Ethernet ports' in this context, please, and how do they differ from what a switch has anyway?
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Virtual LANs allow you to run separate networks over the same physical cabling.
For instance, you might trust the doorbell network (physically exposed on the outside of your building) less than the one handling credit card data, and don't want them able to communicate. But your site topology might mean you have to use the same physical link for connecting them.
Let's assume you have one ethernet cable you want to send both traffic down. You do this by using VLAN-enabled switches. You put a VLAN-enabled switch at each end. You then decide on a VLAN numbering scheme, for instance:
VLAN 123 = doorbell VLAN 456 = accounting
You then configure switch A for port 1 to be on VLAN 123 and port 2 to be on VLAN 456. You do the same for switch B. You plug in the doorbell kit to port 1 and credit card kit to port 2.
You select port 3 to carry all 'tagged' frames, and link the switches with your one cable between their port 3s.
+-------------------------------+ | Switch A | doorbell -|-port 1--[tag3?]-+ | | X--port 3 -|-- VLAN tagged frames on one link accounts -|-port 2--[tagE6?]-+ | | | +-------------------------------+ [and the same at the other end]
The switches 'tag' packets going out on port 3, in other words the packet over the link looks like:
[VLAN tag3][Ethernet header][IP header][IP payload][checksums]
and then route based on the tag, rather than routing to all ports. Because the tag says VLAN 123, each switch now conveys this only between port 1. For this traffic, it's as if the other ports didn't exist. Effectively you have two isolated networks running over a single cable.
The downside is that you need a management interface on each switch to configure this, that means the switch having a webserver, CPU, etc. This makes the switches more expensive. It's also more work to configure and maintain.
This is fairly standard enterprise networking, and not uncommon if your business is large enough to buy switches from Cisco rather than Belkin.
(Some cheapo switches support it too - for instance there's a 10 pound TP-Link gigabit 8-port. I haven't tried it)
Theo
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Err, I don't think you do:

VLAN != VPN.
VLAN is for running networks over shared physical infrastructure. They're separate, they run separate DHCP servers, one side cannot generate packets that route to the other no matter how it gets compromised.
VPN is for extending your network over the Internet. In a domestic situation you probably don't want that (though you may use it to connect to your employer).
VLAN is a layer 2 (Ethernet) thing, VPN is (mostly) a layer 3 (IP) thing (though some run at layer 2). VLANs won't run over the Internet unless you wrap them in a VPN (and it's generally a bad idea).
For instance, you ran a single ethernet cable under the patio to the shed. You want the shed to have access to the front door camera (that anyone could walk up to and hook into while you were on holiday) and the NAS containing your bank statements. You'd like those to be on two separate networks, but can't run another cable because it's under the concrete.
Or you ran a single cable up the stairs but you want to give the kids a separate network so you can separate their traffic from your home business in the spare bedroom. You want to be able to firewall your business traffic so whatever dodgy apps they're running won't get access to your work machines. Or perhaps you want first go at the DSL connection and want to restrict the bandwidth the kids have, or shut off their network after dinnertime while you can keep working.
This is all on top of standard MAC address switching that means links will only carry traffic relevant for them. That doesn't help you if a dodgy app generates traffic it's not intended to. VLANs do.
Theo
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On 29/01/16 15:33, Theo wrote:

well exactly, nothing to do with ethernet ports and not needed domestically.
Since you can run as many networks as you like over a single piece of cable.
And if you really must use DHCP make sure the mac addresses are pre-allocated.

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On 29/01/2016 15:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Stop digging, you are wrong.
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On 29/01/16 16:45, dennis@home wrote:

No dennis, I am not wrong. There is a difference between security and traffic sharing
http://cnp3book.info.ucl.ac.be/protocols/ethernet.html
Read the section on how switches maintain MAC address tables so they only send particular packets destined for a particular target down a particular piece of cable. And the tree spanning algorithms that allow them to decide routes via other switches.
Anyone who has set up anything more than a basic network knows that a single switch can acccomodate dozens on independent IP networks, all coexisting happily and all mutually inaccessible if set up correctly, at the casual use level. Of course from a security point of view they are not always so separate - one network CAN break into another..but is that really an issue in a domestic situationb? Is your doorbell really going to change its IP address onto a 'different' network and hack into your server?
The whole POINT of a switch is that they are plug and play mac level ROUTERS.
Not repeaters.
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On 29/01/2016 17:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Do you really want to keep digging? I probably know more about this stuff than you, it was my job to design networks with vlans in over ethernet, ATM, etc.
I had millions of pounds worth of kit from juniper, cisco, and others just to model networks on. They included:-
a play out suit provided by BBC technical services several reverse caches for the web servers loads of switches ATM switches DSLAMs CISCO VoIP System X exchange (14 of them IIRC) radio links 10G long haul links (never did get the soliton based one)
You can continue to claim that you were correct but we know differently.
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[19 lines snipped]

Oh, that's hysterical.
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On 29/01/16 15:46, Huge wrote:

Oh yeah, one slip ane read 'VPN' wher VLAN is written and get a good laugh.
Now tell me once again, what possible reason could anyone ever have for installing a VLAN in a sonmestic situation, and what is meant oin the context of previous posts by 'Ethernet port'
Or is it simply a question of 'I am posting this irrelevant technical shit to baffle bra8ins and show off' ??
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You say:

and you don't even know the difference between a VLAN and a VPN.
I'm glad I'm not one of your customers.
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On 29/01/2016 00:33, Theo wrote:

Last time I played with vlans at home I locked every computer out and couldn't get access to the router to sort out my mistake without a factory reset IIRC.
Another case of too much knowledge with too little experience can cause big problems at the press of a button. :)
Another reason I take router config dumps before fiddling with the networking dark side... (most of the time)
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On 27/01/2016 10:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:

You have to make sure the lens is up to it. Normal CCTV lenses are not going to give a good picture on a 3/5 Mpixel sensor.
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