A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.
He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).
Cheers, T i m
p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)
cat5e is good up to gigabit, but can't see him needing faster than
10/100 really, if he goes for cat6 the cable needs larger band radius
and is thicker, also outlets and patch panels may be more expensive.
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
And is less tolerant of being pulled and kinked during installation.
CAT5e will be fine but ensure it is copper not CCS or CCA. Might be
worth checking if the CCTV is going to use PoE IP cameras or coax and
twisted pair. Personally I'd be looking hard at IP based CCTV
solutions, there are some pretty highspec cameras out there for not
many pennies. Ones with on board recording, PIR detection, IR
illumination, 3 M pixel or more resolution.
On 27/01/16 12:52, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
IME Don't really need to go much beyond four per point for normal
3. Adhoc Laptop
However I once worked on an office build where 2 points were provided
for PCs and Phones. They'd forgotten each user had their own laser
printer which (due to the house system software) had to be installed
To my mind, there's always a power supply at every data outlet and when
a 4 port Gigabit switch costs less than £20 there's little point in
running loads of extra wire. Far neater to have a single wire coming out
of the wall to a switch hidden behind something.
If we were short of ports in a location, I got the uni's infrastructure
dept to call the cabling installers to come and run in a few more.
Users were prohibited from splitting network ports by using switches.
These were flagged up on the monitoring systems and appropriate LARTs
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
Also multiple ethernet ports mean you can segment the network: not put the
doorbell on the same network as the banking data. You can do that on a
switch with VLANs, but to do that you need a more expensive switch.
Can you put that in simple English that a a mere professional IT network
engineer can understand?
What are 'multiple Ethernet ports' in this context, please, and how do
they differ from what a switch has anyway?
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
Virtual LANs allow you to run separate networks over the same physical
For instance, you might trust the doorbell network (physically exposed on
the outside of your building) less than the one handling credit card data,
and don't want them able to communicate. But your site topology might mean
you have to use the same physical link for connecting them.
Let's assume you have one ethernet cable you want to send both traffic down.
You do this by using VLAN-enabled switches. You put a VLAN-enabled switch
at each end. You then decide on a VLAN numbering scheme, for instance:
VLAN 123 = doorbell
VLAN 456 = accounting
You then configure switch A for port 1 to be on VLAN 123 and port 2 to be on
VLAN 456. You do the same for switch B. You plug in the doorbell kit to
port 1 and credit card kit to port 2.
You select port 3 to carry all 'tagged' frames, and link the switches with
your one cable between their port 3s.
| Switch A |
doorbell -|-port 1--[tag3?]-+ |
| X--port 3 -|-- VLAN tagged frames on one link
accounts -|-port 2--[tagE6?]-+ |
[and the same at the other end]
The switches 'tag' packets going out on port 3, in other words the packet
over the link looks like:
[VLAN tag3][Ethernet header][IP header][IP payload][checksums]
and then route based on the tag, rather than routing to all ports. Because
the tag says VLAN 123, each switch now conveys this only between port 1.
For this traffic, it's as if the other ports didn't exist. Effectively you
have two isolated networks running over a single cable.
The downside is that you need a management interface on each switch to
configure this, that means the switch having a webserver, CPU, etc. This
makes the switches more expensive. It's also more work to configure and
This is fairly standard enterprise networking, and not uncommon if your
business is large enough to buy switches from Cisco rather than Belkin.
(Some cheapo switches support it too - for instance there's a 10 pound
TP-Link gigabit 8-port. I haven't tried it)
VLAN != VPN.
VLAN is for running networks over shared physical infrastructure. They're
separate, they run separate DHCP servers, one side cannot generate packets
that route to the other no matter how it gets compromised.
VPN is for extending your network over the Internet. In a domestic
situation you probably don't want that (though you may use it to connect to
VLAN is a layer 2 (Ethernet) thing, VPN is (mostly) a layer 3 (IP) thing
(though some run at layer 2). VLANs won't run over the Internet unless you
wrap them in a VPN (and it's generally a bad idea).
For instance, you ran a single ethernet cable under the patio to the shed.
You want the shed to have access to the front door camera (that anyone could
walk up to and hook into while you were on holiday) and the NAS containing
your bank statements. You'd like those to be on two separate networks, but
can't run another cable because it's under the concrete.
Or you ran a single cable up the stairs but you want to give the kids a
separate network so you can separate their traffic from your home business
in the spare bedroom. You want to be able to firewall your business traffic
so whatever dodgy apps they're running won't get access to your work
machines. Or perhaps you want first go at the DSL connection and want to
restrict the bandwidth the kids have, or shut off their network after
dinnertime while you can keep working.
This is all on top of standard MAC address switching that means links will
only carry traffic relevant for them. That doesn't help you if a dodgy app
generates traffic it's not intended to. VLANs do.
well exactly, nothing to do with ethernet ports and not needed domestically.
Since you can run as many networks as you like over a single piece of cable.
And if you really must use DHCP make sure the mac addresses are
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
No dennis, I am not wrong. There is a difference between security and
Read the section on how switches maintain MAC address tables so they
only send particular packets destined for a particular target down a
particular piece of cable. And the tree spanning algorithms that allow
them to decide routes via other switches.
Anyone who has set up anything more than a basic network knows that a
single switch can acccomodate dozens on independent IP networks, all
coexisting happily and all mutually inaccessible if set up correctly, at
the casual use level. Of course from a security point of view they are
not always so separate - one network CAN break into another..but is that
really an issue in a domestic situationb? Is your doorbell really going
to change its IP address onto a 'different' network and hack into your
The whole POINT of a switch is that they are plug and play mac level
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
On 29/01/2016 17:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Do you really want to keep digging?
I probably know more about this stuff than you, it was my job to design
networks with vlans in over ethernet, ATM, etc.
I had millions of pounds worth of kit from juniper, cisco, and others
just to model networks on. They included:-
a play out suit provided by BBC technical services
several reverse caches for the web servers
loads of switches
System X exchange (14 of them IIRC)
10G long haul links (never did get the soliton based one)
You can continue to claim that you were correct but we know differently.
Oh yeah, one slip ane read 'VPN' wher VLAN is written and get a good laugh.
Now tell me once again, what possible reason could anyone ever have for
installing a VLAN in a sonmestic situation, and what is meant oin the
context of previous posts by 'Ethernet port'
Or is it simply a question of 'I am posting this irrelevant technical
shit to baffle bra8ins and show off'
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.
Last time I played with vlans at home I locked every computer out and
couldn't get access to the router to sort out my mistake without a
factory reset IIRC.
Another case of too much knowledge with too little experience can cause
big problems at the press of a button.
Another reason I take router config dumps before fiddling with the
networking dark side... (most of the time)
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