Car clutch issue

Doubt this will be something I can DIY...
This morning while my giving my son a driving lesson in a 2008 Kia Rio I bought as a learner car the clutch pedal suddenly went such that we couldn't get into gear. I managed to get it into second and got it home but in the last mile it recovered and I could engage gear again fairly easily.
Any ideas of likely fault - I suspect leak in slave cylinder and maybe hydraulics shared with brakes? I know nothing about Kias though.
thanks
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On 15/07/2017 15:15, John Smith wrote:

From the description that or the clutch master cylinder seems likely. As least it isn't a concentric slave cylinder on those :)
A quick perusal of the Kia users forum, (I was there for a different problem with another Kia Rio) seems to suggest clutch problems are not uncommon...
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On Saturday, 15 July 2017 15:15:27 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:

https://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?5187-Intermittent-clutch-problem-with-Ford-KA
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How does that help? Brian
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On Saturday, 15 July 2017 15:15:27 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:

Sorry about the above. http://www.kia-forums.com/do-yourself/30144-how-adjust-kia-rio-clutch.html
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Did the pedal feel very different? Could be just the hydralics. If the fluid level is ok, can you make it work by pumping the pedal?
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A year after I bought an ex-demo Peugeot 308, I had this sort of symptom, except it failed *in gear*. I'd stopped at traffic lights. I'd just put the car into gear and was letting the clutch up as the lights went green, when the car gave a convulsive lurch and stalled. I think the clutch mechanism must have let the clutch in although the pedal was still half-way down.
It was all very embarrassing because I was the lead car, so nothing could get round me except by going on the wrong side of the road. And because the car had stalled in gear, there was no slack in the gearbox so I couldn't get the car into neutral. It was jammed solid :-(
Luckily after working the clutch pedal up and down many times, it finally managed to operate the clutch, so I put the car into neutral while I had the chance. It was then a case of persuading the cars behind me to stop far enough back that I had space to roll backwards (I was on an uphill) into a space - parallel parking by gravity!
I waited there till the RAC came with a tow truck, and they got it to the Peugeot garage which was just down the road, just before they closed for the day: the person who answered the phone there said he'd stay on till I got the car there, to book it in.
As luck would have it, my girlfriend didn't need her car (she'd injured her arm in an accident a few months earlier and still wasn't driving) so I borrowed her car to drive home after the weekend staying with her, and kept it until the work had been finished.
That was a seal on a hydraulic actuator - the hydraulic equivalent of a broken or seized clutch cable, in terms of the effect on the drivability of the car.
How common is it for cars like your Kia to have hydraulics that are shared between brake and clutch? I'd have thought that both brake circuits would deliberately kept separate from the clutch to stop a clutch failure preventing the brakes working.
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On Saturday, 15 July 2017 20:37:33 UTC+1, NY wrote:

My last car I could drive it without the clutch at all. Knew it well enough for no-clutch gear changes, and started it in 1st gear. Hardly ideal but usable to get home as long as you don't need to stop often.
NT
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 15:31:49 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

All manual cars can be driven without a clutch. If you manage to avoid stopping, there's no need to use the starter to kick it off in first gear.
Saved a *fortune* in days gone by when we used to recover a car with a broken clutch cable, although advantages of a cable are (1) you can carry a spare, and (2) most can be fitted at the roadside.
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That is a *very* big "if" :-) In any sort of traffic, the chances of not needing to stop at a junction or at lights is negligible. And my car can't be started in-gear even on level ground: the starter motor doesn't get the engine going fast enough for it to fire if it's having to propel the car in first as well as overcome normal engine friction. Maybe diesels are harder to start in-gear than petrols because of the higher compression ratio.
And it doesn't solve the problem if the car jams in gear so you can't disengage (as opposed to not being able to engage) when you are on a steep uphill. I did try it and the car didn't move at all but the lights dimmed...
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 10:44:48 +0100, NY wrote:

I had that issue once and was lucky to be able to get going. On level ground in Braintree when it failed; I managed to get all the way home to East Kent wothout stopping - 90 odd miles. The synchro was worn but I was fine with double declutching etc.
It was fund throwing the money at the guy in the booth at the Dartford tunnel tolls! (yes, tunnel)
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On Monday, 17 July 2017 10:44:47 UTC+1, NY wrote:

I've used starting in gear as a way to get a car going when it couldn't get the engine past compression. It adds enough inertia to tide it over compression & get it going.
Diesels can be very fussy. The last one was diesel & wouldn't start if turnover speed was even a bit below maximum charge.
NT
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 10:44:48 +0100, NY wrote:

Also modern cars don't appear to have starter motors, but run the alternator in reverse to spin the engine ...
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Is that necessarily a bad thing if it delivers enough torque to the engine to turn it in all normal circumstances? One thing occurs to me though: most alternators are driven by the "fan belt" (which doesn't drive the fan if the car has an electric fan), so is this capable of delivering enough torque to the engine when the alternator is acting in reverse as a motor, without slippage of belt on pulleys? Presumably the torque required to turn over a cold engine (when the alternator is acting as a motor) is far greater than the torque needed to drive the alternator when it is supplying a normal electrical load.
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I doubt it's quite that simple. An alternator runs at about twice engine speed. Starter motors are geared down to something like 20:1.
There are combined units, though. Quite common on some motor bikes. Not sure about cars.
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:37:36 +0100, NY wrote:

I can't comment on this last paragraph but the last time I had similar clutch trouble (snapped clutch cable on a 6cwt Vauxhall van about 25 to 30 years ago), the works garage told me to drive it in, advising me how to deal with the problem of setting off from a standstill sans clutch after I complained about my difficulty in meeting their request).
It proved to be ridiculously simple to drive sans clutch once I'd absorbed the half minute 'over the phone lesson in driving without the aid of a clutch'. This trick basically amounts to slipping into neutral on approaching stopping places (junctions, traffic lights on red etc) and switching the engine off immediately followed by engaging first gear once at a standstill.
Setting off is just a simple matter of starting the engine whilst in gear without operating the accelerator until the vehicle has started moving and the engine has chugged into life whereupon you apply gentle pressure on the accelerator to bring it up to normal for first gear road speed followed by further upward clutch-less gear changes which, even back then was a piece of piss courtesy of synchromesh and the art of 'slipping' in and out of gear by synchronising the engine and road speeds.
Being the lazy sod that I am, I used this technique of clutch-less gear changes from then on (sans the clutch-less setting off manoeuvre of course!), which not only kept my left leg nicely rested but also reduced needless wear and tear on the clutch mechanism. :-) There were still ample opportunities to exercise my left leg with clutch duty to obviate any risk of muscle wastage due to lack of use so there's no reason to recommend against this practice other than when driving vehicles that are *so* vintage as to lack a synchromesh gearbox.
The only objection I can see being made is in regard of drivers who just can't learn the technique of finnessing the gear selector into and out of gear without brutal application of force on the gear lever and the resulting wear and tear on the synchronising cones (which would be a problem anyway even with the benefit of a clutch to mitigate the situation).
The only pitfall I can foresee with a modern car when using this clutch- less driving technique as a means to limp homeward or to a suitable repair workshop is the possible interference by the engine management computer on today's modern vehicles[1]. I've never had the opportunity to test the 'starting in gear' technique on a modern manual gearbox car so anyone who may be faced with the OP's situation will have to test this out for themselves.
Of course, anyone mindful enough of such an unexpected possibility, would do this 'Starting in Gear' test under controlled and benign conditions (on a relatively deserted/quiet road/empty car park, preferably pointed downslope of a gentle incline for the initial test) so they'll already know the best action to take should they ever have to deal with such a failure.
[1] From previous discussions that have taken place in this news group about modern diesel engined cars, the deliberate stalling action by the engine management computer designed to prevent the engine from over- stressing the engine mountings, might prove to be a 'Show stopper' as far as the 'Starting in gear' setting off technique goes. A modern petrol engined vehicle, contrary to Old Skool expectations, may prove more forgiving of such starting in gear abuse than its modern diesel engined counterpart.
Who knows? Perhaps it's time to add such information to the "Fun Fact" list of modern ICE powered road vehicles with manual gearbox transmissions that still rely on a driver operated clutch. :-)
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 23:06:33 GMT, Johnny B Good
snip about starting in gear etc

Admittedly its not a huge number but the few fairly recent manual cars I have driven won't let you start the engine unless you depress the clutch pedal. What I don't know is at what stage the electronics make their decision, perhaps depressing the pedal is enough even if the clutch plate isn't disengaging but if they are actually getting an input from the clutch itself that confirm it has functioned then with a malfunctioning one you may not be able to start the engine and then proceed as we used to by matching the engine speed and gentle pressure on the gear lever to change smoothly.
G.Harman
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On Sunday, 16 July 2017 00:06:36 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:

IME a clutchless change causes gearteeth grinding if you don't match the speeds spot on. This is with an all synchro box.
NT
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On 16/07/2017 01:47, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
<snip> > IME a clutchless change causes gearteeth grinding if you don't match the speeds spot on. This is with an all synchro box.
That depends on the synchro.
In theory with fully functioning synchromesh it should be impossible to engage a gear where there is pressure for the synchro ring to block the engagement of that gear.
In practise the cone clutch wears and the tips wear such it is possible to overcome the blocking effect.
I can't recommend continuously changing gear without using the clutch as it accelerates the wear of the cone clutches and rings.
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On 16/07/17 12:16, Fredxxx wrote:

Unless you practice like hell to match gear speeds.
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