I ask because of the prices being asked for hardwood windows are around £400 for a 3'10" by 3'4" fairly plain window. i can get a softwood one the same size from Wicks for £75...obviously not the same quality but I'm saving quite a lot of money by doing this.
steve
There is softwood, and softwood. Some of the cheapest crap will last 4-5 times less than the best. If you plan to paint it regularly, then it's less of an issue. Hardwood will last lots longer than softwood. (though technically Balsa is a hardwood, and would not last as long as even pine) I suspect that it's more expensive than pine anyway, otherwise we'd see 'hardwood' windows made of it.
If its pressure treated it can last decades. If painted then probably not.
No. Most Victorian and Georgian windows are softwood, and most are still ok, but they will never last the many hundreds of years that hardwood does.
The main question is whether youll maintain them properly. Softwood needs proper maintencance to stay good, hardwood is more tolerant.
To reduce maintenance burden, use linseed oil paint, with a 15 year repaint cycle.
NT
Some of the softwood windows on my house are 250 years old, however modern fast grown pine from the likes of Wicks I guarantee will rot within 5 years. ;( with wood buy the Very best quality you can afford.
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Actually it will Ther are quite a lot of 40 and 50 model year old aeroplanes using it.
it is.
Its also less than suitable for window frames.
All wood can last indefinitely if water and sunlight are kept away from it - that is down to the paint...
I have some original 1939 windows left in my house, they are softwood, but only the north facing ones are left, the rest having been scrapped some years ago. As a previous poster said, the quality of modern softwood is suspect. A neighbour has also complained to me that a set of softwood bargeboards he put up less than a decade ago were rotten through, and he reckoned he'd done the full primer/undercoat/paint system.
I have seen the Wickes softwood windows, they are obviously treated but I would like to know if they are dipped or pressure treated. On a personal note, I dislike the very undersquare top counterlight windows they have. It's a modern trend to pillbox-slit styling that doesn't appeal to me.
Others have mentioned softwoods ike spruce or Douglas fir(?) in previous posts as being somewhat superior to modern pine.
Andy.
There's a lot of talk about softwood and hardwood, modern wood and quick grown wood and wood they way it used to grow and wood that grows in Wicks.
But it's the species that counts. And the paint.
Softwoods such as larch and Douglas fir and cedar are durable. They have naturally occurring chemicals that inhibit moulds. Given suitably designed joinery that sheds the rain and doesn't leave the wood sitting in permanent puddles, they are very suitable for windows without using nasty artificial poisons.
Hardwoods such as English and European oak, teak and mahogany are very durable and suitable for windows. But teak and mahogany should be left where they are, grown sustainably for local use. Not bought by us. Which leaves us with oak. It is the best material. There is plenty of it, it is growing faster than it is being used, it looks great and, without any treatment, it will last for centuries without rotting. While it's growing an oak tree supports a greater biodiversity than any other temperate tree and for every cubic metre of oak that is turned into window frames about half a ton of carbon dioxide is taken out of the atmosphere and fixed for centuries.
Paint is a big problem, causing the early rotting of much wood. Modern alkyd-based paints are too waterproof. Unless very carefully maintained cracks will develop which allow water to get to the wood. The impermeable paint layer then stops the wood drying out again and rot sets in. The paint peals off and folk think the wood is rubbish and change it for uPVC. If real linseed oil paint is used these problems don't arise. The paint allows the wood to dry out - like a Goretex jacket instead of like a plastic mac with a hole. The wood stays dry, it doesn't rot, the paint does not peal and the only folk who suffer are the paint manufacturers because you won't be back next year for another can. Which is why almost, but not quite, all paint manufacturers do not make linseed paint anymore.
Use only linseed oil paint on new softwood windows and on oak windows either use linseed oil paint or don't bother painting them at all.
In article , snipped-for-privacy@biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk writes
Good stuff thanks, I used microporous stuff (International Ranch Paint) when I put mine in, is that worth any brownie points? Any disadvantages in using linseed oil based stuff?
What the hell is modern pine? European Redwood has always been the basic stock of timber merchants, but most of the sheds now seem to be selling whitewood as the general purpose timber, and I would guess a lot of mass produced joinery is made from it too. Softer than redwood, but not as prone to movement, so it suits manufacturers better. As for the latest sermon from our lime -loving friend, there is nothing sacred about linseed oil paint. It's a hard, brittle coating that was rightly abandoned by all but the artists long ago in favour of cheaper and better resins. Like most coatings it cracks when the wood shrinks (which it is able to do because the coating allows water vapour through it). After that it *is* like a hole in your raincoat and hastens the onset of rot. One way to extend the life of softwood windows is to impregnate them with polyester resin at the outset. They're usually quite porous which allows the resin to soak in and, once cured, you have a tough sandable surface which looks like wood but behaves like plastic.
If you want to tart up some old windows to look good for a couple of years then modern paint is your friend. I've just been linseed oil painting some of my windows and it is a long process especially the preparation work, though the payoff so they say is that subsequent maintenance is much less than with modern paint
First all the modern paint had to be stripped off which took a looooong time to do :-( and was very boooooring :-(
Then it was sanded
Then it was linseed oiled. Wait 24 hours
Then it was linseed oil painted. Wait and thank goodness the weather is hot so it is dry in 24 hours
Dunno how many coats I will need to do. Two or three I guess.
Anna
~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____|
Good info, thanks.
Mine were new (sliding sashes) so no need to strip and it meant I was able to fully paint the frames before they went in so the linseed oil treatment probably wouldn't have been that much extra work. I did think about the wood breathing so that's why I went for the microporous option; I hope that'll be halfway as good. I'll certainly look at the linseed oil paint option if I have to replace any others but they're in pretty good shape for 100yr old softwood.
Sympathies on the stripping, I've found some lovely detailed mouldings on my doors under about an 1/8" of polyfila like paint.
If you give the ones from Wickes a few coats of preserver and get as much as you can into the corners and end grain it should last a lot longer.
There are also preservative pellets that can be pushed into holes drilled in the wood and will protect the wood if it gets damp.
cheers, Pete.
As I understand it, plantation grown pine as opposed to that sourced growing under natural conditions, i.e. natural pine forests. As explained to me the problem is that plantation-grown pine grows faster than it would in an ancient pine forest and the wood is less dense, and less durable because of that. I can't cite any scientific evidence, purely anecdotes I've heard from several different sources in the past few years. I am not pointing at any particular species, more the nature of its husbandry.
Andy.
It is a pity that much of the timber trade describes softwoods as Redwood or Whitewood. At the risk of irritating Stuart a little more and suggesting to him that I love wood as well as lime, here are a few basic facts it may be handy to know when buying timber windows. 'Redwood' usually means Pinus sylvestris, the Scotts Pine. It is classed as 'moderately durable' which means it can be used for external joinery, given sensible design detailing. It often has a lot of knots so is not always very suitable for the finer joinery such as for windows. 'Whitewood' usually means Picea abies, the Norway spruce, (our common Christmas tree). It is classed as non-durable so you should not want to use it for external joinery. It's the commonest timber found in the DIY sheds and is used extensively in house building for roof trusses and such like. It is a slightly lighter weight than 'redwood'. Some 'whitewood' is Picea sitchensis, Sitka spruce, also non-durable and even lighter than Picea abies. Abies alba, the silver fir, Tsuga heterophylla, western hemlock, and Pinus contorta, lodgepole pine, are other non-durable timbers sometimes also sold as 'whitewood'. But if you want a timber that is really going to last a long time outside then you need to go to a specialist timber merchant and specify a 'moderately durable' or 'durable' species. Pseudotsuga menziesii, the Douglas fir, is classed as moderately durable. It is a strong heavy timber usually free from knots so useful for joinery such as windows. Larix deciduas, the larch, is also moderately durable and even heavier and tougher than Douglas fir. An excellent softwood for exterior joinery. Thuja plicata, the western red cedar, is classed as durable but is lighter in weight and not as tough so is not as suitable for detailed joinery. It's rot resistance makes it good for cladding and other situations where untreated and unpainted timber is exposed to the weather. Chameacyparis nootkatensis, the Alaskan yellow cedar is also classed as 'durable' but is not commonly available in Britain. It is one of the parents of the hybrid, Leylandii, much beloved as a suburban garden hedge. Leylandii has inherited the durability and strength of yellow cedar and would make a fine timber if only folk would stop clipping it. So if you want a window made from a softwood that doesn't need pressure treating with poison, but that your grandchildren can inherit, specify larch or Douglas fir and paint it with linseed oil paint. Or, better still, use oak Now how long will it take before Stuart posts something very rude?
That's a bit tricky and it depends on the species. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but some timbers are actually stronger if they grow fast.
Depends on how you define stronger.
In general hardwoods have superior qualities if grown fast, conifers if slower, within limits, 14 rings to the inch seemed to be optimum IIRC.
AJH
Ring-porous hardwoods though, not softwoods. Ash is the classic example.
It's not to do with the size of the rings or the coarseness of the grain, it's because it changes the ratio between early and late wood. As softwoods can't be ring-porous, this never applies.
Stuart Noble wrote in
My understanding from a window/external use point of view. Spruce, plantation grown at lower latitude then this species originated, leading to rapid growth and enlarged growth rings followed by kiln drying. Result windows that rot quicker then the life cycle of the average gerbil, Regardless of what you paint it with. Even (new) cedar redwood seems to suffer the same fate.
As long as it takes you to post something very pompous.
Redwood has proved a good timber for joinery because of its moderate price, ease of machining and, unlike whitewood, knots tend to be tight. Within that species there is a vast range of quality and price depending how far north it has been grown. Siberian is still probably the creme de la creme with Scottish and Welsh fit only for pallets. There is no point going on about Alaskan yellow whatever, or anything else not generally available. Douglas Fir is a resinous timber and doesn't take paint well
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