Building a big shed - bureaucracy and floors

Hello,

I currently have as a workshop a cheap Yardmaster metal shed. With some mod ifications (interior boarding, polystyrene in the roof, etc) it's served me adequately for the last five years or so, but I really want to expand. In particular, I've just inherited a lovely old metalworking lathe, and there' s no way I can set it up in the present space. So, time for a new shed.

What I have in mind is a timber structure - CLS frame, OSB interior lining, bit of rockwool between the studs, and feather-edge or possibly shiplap bo ards on the outside. Not sure of the roof, I guess a ridge with the shallow est pitch I can reasonably get away with (don't want anything too dominatin gly high) and decent felt, but I'm open to ideas.

Seems simple enough, but then I heard about building regs. Apparently if yo u're over 15m^2 (which I will be, there's no point otherwise) and within a metre of the boundary (which I also will be - the garden is long but narrow and I really need to use the full width) then you're not allowed to build in wood under the BR exemption.

I did do some very rough costings for a blockwork shed or a prefab concrete a couple of years ago - I can't remember the details but I know it came ou t pretty pricey (then again, I haven't done even rough costs for timber, bu t it surely must be less). Also I'm a crappy bricklayer but I can shoot scr ews into softwood all day and come out with something reasonable at the end . So I want to stick with the wooden structure if I can.

I've never done anything involving Building Regs before. If I talk to the g uys at the council, are they likely to say "sure, go ahead", "Yes, but here are many onerous rules to follow", or a flat-out "no, you can't build it i n wood because of the Great Fire of London"? This is in Southampton, if it matters. The proposed site is at the bottom of my garden, surrounded on all sides by the bottoms of other people's gardens in a typical Victorian semi s layout.

Separately, assuming the wooden plan is a goer, I don't really know what to do about the floor. The current shed sits on a base of paving slabs laid b y the previous owner, rather like a patio. I'm not sure exactly what's unde r them; the edges are raised about 6" with some cement visible so they're n ot just flat on the ground, but I don't know how much structure there is. T his patio is too small for the new shed; I would need to either extend off one side of it or demolish it and start again. Such groundworks are complic ated by the lack of access to the garden except through my hallway and livi ng room.

I like the idea of a concrete floor, especially since I will be fitting the lathe and in due course probably a table saw and other large tools. I'm no t quite sure how to start off a wooden building from that, but I'm sure the re's a way. So smash up the existing plinth and use it as filler in a newly laid one? That's a lot of concrete though (5m x 7m x however thick). I'm i magining a great big hose being laid through the house from a lorry outside and pumping it in, but I've no idea if such a system even exists, let alon e can be had at reasonable cost. The other option is to get a mixer (there' s a guy at work hires out a Belle Minimix) and do it with barrows and shove ls - I have no real experience, but I'm not sure that's sensible at this si ze.

So maybe I go for a suspended wooden floor after all - any advice on how be st to do it? Bearing in mind one side of the shed would be over the existin g slabs, and the other over what's currently grass. Frame and joists of tre ated 4" timbers and sturdy floorboards over?

Anyway, any advice on the job is welcome. And apologies for any Google wier dnesses in this post - I used to post to uk.d-i-y regularly years ago, but I no longer have a news account or a reader installed.

Cheers,

Pete

Reply to
Pete
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In article , Pete scribeth thus

Can't see why not..

They make houses outa wood.

Ask them and whatever you do make sure that if they say all OK nothing needed get it in writing!.

I think somewhere you might have planning permission issues but again ask the council. Easier to ask then beg permission etc afterwards....

Yes they do but they can cost quite a bit;(..

If you have a friend or two who can be roped in then you can barrow it if its not too far, did that the other year and it worked well a few beer crates filled up was their reward. You can get small tracked dumper's for hire might be another way, but god help if it packs up while the mixer is waiting;!. Some people now do concrete in a mixer that mixes it up from the raw ingredients on site, "volumetric" as per here..

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I'd make a decent job of it concrete is the best option I'd reckon..

Reply to
tony sayer

Building Control != Planning.

The Building Control Officer (BCO) is not there to stop you - in fact you don't get his permission, you submit a notification along with a fee describing what you are going to do.

However, he does need it done by the Approved Documents (google) before he can give you a completion cert.

Your best bet would be to look on the council website (Borough or District or City) for your area and see if you can find the BCO covering you.

Then email him and ask if you can have a 10 minute meeting prior to submitting a notice. If you take a sketch of your garden and what you'd like to do, he should be happy to give you a quick "can't do that, but you can do this" chat.

They are often very helpful (though that does vary by council).

Lots of people on here can help you with specifics.

Have a look here too:

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Do check that you can do what you want within permitted development or you will have to deal with Planning too.

You could also be cheeky and make 2 15m2 buildings!

Tim

Reply to
Tim Watts

I was also thinking re the access, if its a semi, then surely there must be a gap between his house and the next one, and a bit of sweet talking to a neighbour and a promise of some cheap work being done, might make access much easier. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

There were threads on this a few years back.

I think you may require planning, not just building regs, if you don't conform to the requirements on the local government site. However it is a while since I looked at it. Also, rules change constantly. If it is only building regs then you probably don't want to meet all the requirements for foundations and footings and damp proof and insulation and......

See

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"Outbuildings are considered to be permitted development, not needing planning permission, subject to the following limits and conditions:

No outbuilding on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation. Outbuildings and garages to be single storey with maximum eaves height of

2.5 metres and maximum overall height of four metres with a dual pitched roof or three metres for any other roof. **Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within two metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.** No verandas, balconies or raised platforms. No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings."

So I think the planning governed the height - not more than 2.5 metres - and the BR governed the materials

I went down a similar route and ended up building a shed out of blocks on a concrete foundation with a flat metal roof because of the requirement for the building to not be flammable if less than 2 metres from a boundary IIRC. I think your felt roof would fail that test.

I wanted to be within 0.5m of the boundary, giving me roughly an extra 3 metres across the garden.

The maximum height requirement also prevent you from having a pitched roof unless you are a dwarf, sink the building down into the ground, or have very shallow walls and only stand up in the centre of the building.

Some of my discussions can be found if you search this group for Mother Of All Sheds or MOAS.

I mixed the concrete for the base by hand using a mixer (just to prove I could, really) and it took a day and a half. I also had a larger mixer on hire than a Belle Minimix - I wouldn't recommend mixing for a large slab with such a small mixer.

Probably the best way (as you are going to be running mixed concrete or unmixed materials through the house anyway) is to get one of the on-site mixer services.

We used this for the new slab when the house was extended at the back and you can get an awful lot of concrete in during an hour if you have three people running barrows and one person working the machine.

I compromised in several areas where I wouldn't if I was doing it again. However the shed is still standing :-)

Cheers

Dave R

Reply to
David

A structure meeting the fire regulations can still be in wood, just like millions of UK houses built in the last 30 years or so. Line with plasterboard and it's ok. Not ideal for a workshop but then you can fit OSB or ply over the top and no one need know any different. The external cladding can be an issue. A few treatments and processes can help but another way round it is to use this stuff.

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They will send out samples, It looks good a few years down the line and remains maintenance free. It's easily cut with a sliding mitre saw. Fixing is just like shiplap. Plenty of info online.

Not sure what you'd do for the roof, mine is a fibreglass flat 'green' roof so while the vegetation might burn the roof won't.

For the main structure there is a bit of info on the TRADA website and their handbook is ok but a bit pricey

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Also lots of downloadable info on the American Plywood Association site that is free if you register

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One answer to the fire issue might be rendered SIP panels as used by Mark Rand over in news:uk.rec.models.engineering

Construction was well documented on his website.

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Panels from

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among others

Forget concrete unless you are using really heavy machinery or want to install wet underfloor heating. Floors in 18mm OSB screwed to a rigid frame work fine for most domestic and light industrial sized engineering machinery and things are less likely to get damaged if you drop them. Lots of insulation and lots of ventilation underneath are essential. Good garage floor paint, preferably as light as you can helps loads.

Reply to
The Other Mike

Have a look at this site. Even if you are not interested in a log cabin type shed/workshop there is some useful info on Swift foundations if you intend having a wooden base/floor. Also look at the info on fire proofing wooden structures.

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Richard

Reply to
Tricky Dicky

I currently have as a workshop a cheap Yardmaster metal shed. With some modifications (interior boarding, polystyrene in the roof, etc) it's served me adequately for the last five years or so, but I really want to expand. In particular, I've just inherited a lovely old metalworking lathe, and there's no way I can set it up in the present space. So, time for a new shed.

What I have in mind is a timber structure - CLS frame, OSB interior lining, bit of rockwool between the studs, and feather-edge or possibly shiplap boards on the outside. Not sure of the roof, I guess a ridge with the shallowest pitch I can reasonably get away with (don't want anything too dominatingly high) and decent felt, but I'm open to ideas.

Seems simple enough, but then I heard about building regs. Apparently if you're over 15m^2 (which I will be, there's no point otherwise) and within a metre of the boundary (which I also will be - the garden is long but narrow and I really need to use the full width) then you're not allowed to build in wood under the BR exemption.

I did do some very rough costings for a blockwork shed or a prefab concrete a couple of years ago - I can't remember the details but I know it came out pretty pricey (then again, I haven't done even rough costs for timber, but it surely must be less). Also I'm a crappy bricklayer but I can shoot screws into softwood all day and come out with something reasonable at the end. So I want to stick with the wooden structure if I can.

I've never done anything involving Building Regs before. If I talk to the guys at the council, are they likely to say "sure, go ahead", "Yes, but here are many onerous rules to follow", or a flat-out "no, you can't build it in wood because of the Great Fire of London"? This is in Southampton, if it matters. The proposed site is at the bottom of my garden, surrounded on all sides by the bottoms of other people's gardens in a typical Victorian semis layout.

Separately, assuming the wooden plan is a goer, I don't really know what to do about the floor. The current shed sits on a base of paving slabs laid by the previous owner, rather like a patio. I'm not sure exactly what's under them; the edges are raised about 6" with some cement visible so they're not just flat on the ground, but I don't know how much structure there is. This patio is too small for the new shed; I would need to either extend off one side of it or demolish it and start again. Such groundworks are complicated by the lack of access to the garden except through my hallway and living room.

I like the idea of a concrete floor, especially since I will be fitting the lathe and in due course probably a table saw and other large tools. I'm not quite sure how to start off a wooden building from that, but I'm sure there's a way. So smash up the existing plinth and use it as filler in a newly laid one? That's a lot of concrete though (5m x 7m x however thick). I'm imagining a great big hose being laid through the house from a lorry outside and pumping it in, but I've no idea if such a system even exists, let alone can be had at reasonable cost. The other option is to get a mixer (there's a guy at work hires out a Belle Minimix) and do it with barrows and shovels - I have no real experience, but I'm not sure that's sensible at this size.

So maybe I go for a suspended wooden floor after all - any advice on how best to do it? Bearing in mind one side of the shed would be over the existing slabs, and the other over what's currently grass. Frame and joists of treated 4" timbers and sturdy floorboards over?

Anyway, any advice on the job is welcome. And apologies for any Google wierdnesses in this post - I used to post to uk.d-i-y regularly years ago, but I no longer have a news account or a reader installed.

Cheers,

Pete

Make a timber frame and use box profile metal sheet for walls and roof. Various grades of metal sheet available with different lifespans. Can be plastic covered, lots of different colours. Clear/translucent rooflights available too

Cheap lightweight and can be built as strong as you like. Secured to timber with screw washers and seals (from same sourceas metal. They will cut it to size for you.

Reply to
harryagain

My shed.

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Reply to
F Murtz

/ F Murtz

-show quotedtext -My shed.

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authuser=0&authkey= Gv1sRgCPnvk9rr35zeGg&feat=directlink/q

And you built that yourself?

Jim K

Reply to
JimK

In message , Pete writes

I was lucky in that there was a rotten wooden structure here that had been used as a stables, so I just went ahead and replaced it with a similar sized wooden shed to house the lathe, milling machine, drill etc.

We had a concrete plinth laid by a small local contractor who also did the flagstone path to cover the power cable that I laid. The plinth had a dpc sheet, then expanded polystyrene sheet, then plywood, then carpet on top. I use rubber sheet on top of this where oil is likely to fly.

The shed has double doors at one end so that long thin things can be poked in to be worked on. The machinery is in a line along one wall, but this is sometimes frustrating because of the access. I think I would consider setting up machinery away from the wall if I were starting again.

The roof has a shallow pitch, but I really miss the storage space in the steeply pitched roof of the shed in the previous house.

This shed has now done 15+ years. It has had 2 felt roofs, but now has Onduline on top.

If you have a SWMBO at home, I can really recommend getting her to look after local contractors rather than diy'ing. Innocence and steady tea and biscuits go a long way.

Reply to
Bill

Could have done, they supply it as a kit,But I let them do it,Got the slab poured and their team put the whole thing up in a day.It would have taken me a lot longer.

Reply to
F Murtz
09:23F Murtz

- show quoted text - Could have done, they supply it as a kit,But I let them do it,Got the slab poured and their team put the whole thing up in a day.It would have taken me a lot longer/q

Mmm thought so ;^)

Jim K

Reply to
JimK

In message , JimK writes

Funny! That link works in Explorer but not in my version of Firefox!

Reply to
Tim Lamb

They also supply whatever size you want as a kit. Regardless of your put down comment (what is a ;^ )they are relatively easy to put up, a few dynabolts into the slab and some bolts and nuts, and loads of tec screws. Lots of people erect their own, easier with smaller ones. Mine is now full of machinery so I can build things like this (on my own)

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Reply to
F Murtz

The page was devoid of photos when viewed with Opera 12.02 until I refreshed the page. Might be worth trying FF again and a page refresh.

Reply to
Johny B Good

Sweet;)..

But it does beg a question ..

.. Just where is the rocking horse muck;?....

Reply to
tony sayer

In article , Bill scribeth thus

So shes well experienced at satisfying the needs of a man then;?......

Reply to
tony sayer

Or several men simultaneously, depending on how big the erec, erm, building going up.

Most builders do prefer the larger cup size, given a choice.

Owain

Reply to
spuorgelgoog

you're over 15m^2 (which I will be, there's no point otherwise) and within a metre of the boundary (which I also will be - the garden is long but narr ow and I really need to use the full width) then you're not allowed to buil d in wood under the BR exemption.

is that correct, and if it's less than 15 sqm can you build a wooden shed a djacent to the boundary without needing to satisfy any fire-regulations?

In fact I can't find a building reg for fire other than reg B on dwellingho uses, and a shed is not a dwelling house.

Robert

Reply to
RobertL

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