Boundary Dispute

[puffernutter]

I'm sure that this has been covered many times before. After I have been l iving in the property for over 14 years now, my neighbour has just knocked on the door and announced that he will be "straightening the fence". I rep lied that I didn't think it was leaning badly everywhere, but he then clari fied the statement by saying he was going to make it a straight line and ge t his garden back.

Next door is a property let as multiple occupancy. The owners live elsewhe re. The boundary has not changed since we moved in, although I have mainta ined and replaced most of the fence panels and posts.

About 4 years ago, they started on that we had taken part of their garden. We refuted that statement and gave them proof in that we have pictures to prove that the fence is unchanged from when we moved in, but they now claim that the previous owner moved the fence without their permission. Why they never took it up with them, or it took them 10 years to raise it with us, it a mystery!! They also brought the previous owner back and whilst they didn't involve us in the visit, the indication was that they (the previous owners) stated it hadn't moved from when they moved out. We're trying to trace them again a nd get them to make a written statement that we can use (if they will!)

The last thing I want to do is get involved in in expensive litigation, but the owners do not believe in listening/being reasonable, so I'm not convin ced they will listen to reason. I don't see why I should allow the fence t o be moved and lose space in my garden, it was the way I bought the house 1

4 years ago. (OK, so they may see that as unreasonable).

I don't see a way forward, but with the reputation our neighbours have I'm afraid is one that indicates they will just do it! We also have a number o f dogs that enjoy the garden and I'm also concerned if they just take down the fence, they may get out.

I assume the Police will just see this as a civil dispute.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Cheers

Peter

[Terry Fields]

Post this in uk.legal.moderated.

[Matty F]

Don't you have boundary pegs? Also Google shows my boundaries very accurately. The data is supplied by my local Council.

[Onetap]

Is the boundary marked on the deeds?

Who actually owns the fence? ISTR it's commonly the fence on the left that you own & maintain, the neighbour on the right owns the fence between your properties; deeds may state otherwise.

Go and see a solicitor with the sole aim of heading off a boundary dispute and getting expert advice about what you should do. The lawyers will love a dispute, lots of stern letters with lawyers being the sole beneficiaries. I think a dispute with neighbours must be declared on selling and would adv ersely affect the value of both properties.

And post it on uk-legal moderated, as someone has said.

[Martin Brown]

Obtain the land registry record(s) for your property. There should be an electronic one if it changed hands 14 years ago. ISTR Nominal charge.

If you live in parts of Yorkshire an obscure local law means if you know the date of the transaction you can get a copy of the plans from the county record office. Maybe true in some other counties too.

Either way if you have held onto it unchallenged for more than 12 years then medieval laws intended to allow lands to be seized when knights failed to return from campaigns come into effect. IANAL but ISTR it comes under the remit of adverse possession see for example:

You will need some old photographs from when you moved in to prove that it has always been how you describe it. It has the potential to get very messy and expensive - neighbour boundary disputes always do ...

Better to ask on uk.legal or .moderated where the experts hang out.

You may need a real life solicitor though.

[Peter Johnson]

Get a copy of the Land Registry documents for both properties?

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo , Onetap escribió:

Looking out from the house or towards the house?

[jgh]

If you've refuted it (provided evidence to show falsity) then that's it. Full stop. Maybe they think you're a politician and actually meant "deny".

JGH

[John Williamson]

Looking from the road.

But commonly is by no means equal to always, and the matter should be covered in the questions asked by your solicitor when you buy the property.

Who owns the fence at the rear of a property is also a prime source of disputes.

[Brian Gaff]

Deeds and boundary markers?

Brian

[Dave Liquorice]

Most boundary markers in the UK are for the administrative boundaries, Parishes and up. Most land has been "enclosed" for a very long time with well established walls, hedges.fences etc. A green field site will be marked out but then fences etc built (hopefully in the right place).

[Dave Liquorice]

Who? the tenants or the owner?

Boundaries have nothing to do with tenants.

Tenants or previous owner moving the fence would not require the permission of the current (but then *future*) owner surely? Or am I missing something.

Depends on what the Land Registry has on record for the boundaries. You did check that the LR maps descriptions etc agreed with reality when you bought didn't you?

Some one has already mentioned Adverse Possesion, as with all Land Law it is highly complex but if, as a squatter, you have had exclusive use of the land for over 12 years you stand a good chance of being able to claim it. Trouble is you say they first challanged your "occupancy" 4 years ago, so at 10 years exclusive use...

Think I'd get copies of the LR records for both plots and see what they say. Even then it might not be very clear or even definative!

The LR site has numerous guides but as I said Land Law is highly complex, greatly modfied and goes back centuaries. Good luck, it has the potential to get very messy and the only winners will be the lawyers.

If you can show who owns the fence, posts on your side, information in the LR records etc and it's yours and they "damage" it then it's Criminal Damage and the Police will get involved with that or of it gets "nasty" in other ways, assault, etc. They won't be interested in the underlying boundary dispute.

[Davey]

Deeds only show vague boundaries, and specifically say that they don't show exact property lines.

[John Williamson]

If it's a terraced or semi-detached property, there's a good case for assuming the property boundary to be a straight-line continuation of the centreline of the party wall, or if there's a pathway between the adjacent house walls, then normal practice is for the property boundary to be the centreline of that pathway. Whoever owns the fence should build it so that it does not project over the boundary at any point, although it is normal to permit access to the fence owner for maintenance. This *should* be documented in the deeds or the answers to questions, but very rarely is.

However, I am not a lawyer, and I will reinforce other suggestions to ask the question on uk.legal.moderated or consult a solicitor, possibly the duty one at the Citizens Advice Bureau or whatever they're calling themselves this week.

[newshound]

Get a CCTV system set up so that you will have a record in the event that they try to move anything.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Looking front to back, it's the right hand side wall I own. Think that's the common way in London.

[Dave Liquorice]

If only it was that simple, the boundary hasn't moved for a good many years. If a land owner wants to retain his rights over his land he has to maintain the bouandaries in the right place and keep the land "exclusive".

If they don't and a squatter comes along and uses (part of) the land as theirs exclusively after 12 years they can invoke Adverse Possesion and claim the land as theirs. The orginal owner can't do a lot as they haven't maintained their rights over the land.

[jgh]

Luckily, my deeds actually do say things like this. Something like: the southern boundary is the centre line of the party wall, and a straight line extension to the highway curtilage and the east face of the rear boundary wall. Boundary features are within the ownership of the land on the side indicated with a 'T'. etc.

At some future point it would be worth considering, once any dispute is out of the way, paying a solicitor to add a worded boundary description to your deeds.

JGH

[Roger Chapman]

IIRC the law on adverse possession was changed some years ago to take into account the fact that many titles are now registered and it is no longer always an impossible task to find out who is the owner of some long abandoned land. IIRC the situation now is that if you wish to claim some land you have squatted on that is registered you claim after 10 years. The LR notifies the registered owner who then has two years to kick you off and if he doesn't bother you can register you claim once those 2 years have elapsed.

I can't see how the above scenario can apply to this sort of boundary dispute as LR titles are at too small a scale to prove exact boundaries and the LR even cautions to that effect. The original title deeds might specify the site dimensions if it is a relatively modern development and if it is a housing estate built by the same developer it is reasonable to suppose that plots would have been laid out uniformly. Since puffernutter has possession it is up to his neighbour to prove the fence really is in the wrong place, not for him to prove that it is in the right place. Given that he has repaired the fence himself it may be that Phil L's assumption that the fence actually belongs to the neighbour is wrong.

[Murmansk]

themselves this week.