Boiler update

[Rob Bradley]

Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a better idea of what I want. Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice (number three didn't bother to turn up). Given that a combi seems to be the way to go: Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230. Seems reasonable?

No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable. Non-condensing are a waste of time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have condensing. Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak, and room 'stat for £115. Powerflush essential, and better than taking rads off, £350. Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a BG service contract.(Why?) He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000 boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20 l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than Ferroli?

Her indoors is starting to mutter about why pay a fortune to get rid of the Glow worm gravity system which is simple, not to say primitive, and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic, and the gas bills are high. There's still the sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers of course.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or, stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all over again.

Rob

[Neil Jones]

When I did the pay back calculations for a CH upgrades earlier this year I compared about a dozen scenarios; combining the existing boiler, a new non-condensing boiler or a new condensing boiler with adding weather compensation, optimised start and insulating my house (walls and/or loft).

[I based the results on the SAP worksheet which is close enough for the ballpark figures I wanted to work with.]

I found that a new non-condensing boiler was never the most cost-effective option. A condensing boiler + insulating the walls would pay back in 22 years (gas prices have risen since which will reduce this period). This is clearly at or above the expected lifespan of a boiler depending on the quality of the item chosen.

Over all other timescales it was never the most economic option to replace my existing boiler, which is 15 years old and works perfectly well, albeit rather inefficiently.

I concluded that my best bet was to keep the old one going until either it died, or I needed a new boiler for some other reason.

Neil

[IMM]

Tosh. 90% of the che controls are identical to all boilers.

Sounds good.

Room stat? a Honeywell CM67 is only £50. Tell him to put one of those in.

He gets commission.

No. He can if he does not charge you.

Ferroli are OK. They are not unreliable. Some fitters get discounts for pushing certain boilers.

You are better all around getting a new boiler and getting the system sorted out. You save approx 40% on fuel.

Go no. 1, and specify a condensing boiler.

[IMM]

By 12%.

Fuel will always go up in price. Payback periods are always difficult to asses, but 22 years sound way off mark.

His system is sludged up and his hot water is pathetic. He need major surgery. This is not an economic exercise. So, he may as well go for a condensing boiler.

[Andy Hall]

The price is reasonable, and the flushing method - not sure about the boiler because it is very low efficiency.

Vaillant make good products, but not the *only* good product. He probably would say that anything else is unreliable.

AIUI, manufacturers have to agree to stock spares for at least ten years after date of last manufacture to get a gas council approval for the boiler.

Clearly the government (not even Rocky) can reasonably legislate about spares for older products being made unavailable. I think that this guy is doing some wishful thinking.

Replacing valves could make sense if the system is oldish. Running a sealed system could make them weep. I replaced mine when I refurbished my system at the same time as taking the radiators outside to be flushed. They are cheap to do at the time and a pain afterwards.

It's an alternative, but not necessarily better. Some form of flushing is essential, and there should be a strainer fitted to the return to the boiler to filter out any remaining crud. £350 is high.

Simple. He gets something from BG to sell the contract.

BG probably more.

His employer should be registered (you can check that with CORGI). Then check whether this guy is listed under their registration.

Vaillant and WB are both good products but would likely be more than the Ferroli.

Another strategy might be to wait until after next April. Competition on condensing products should reduce prices a bit.

It would be nice if you could get the kind of price point of No. 1, with a better boiler and be sure of CORGI registration.

No. 2. is a rip-off IMHO, especially as there are a few misleading comments.

.andy

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[Christian McArdle]

Can quotee number 1 be persuaded to fit a condensing boiler? That might be your best option.

Christian.

[Charles Middleton]

Just to add my comments on this. I had the same situation when refitting my bathroom. Installer was a friend of a friend etc. The job went badly wrong but luckily there was no ill feeling caused between my friend and myself. Personally, in future I would always go with someone of no relation as if there was a problem and god forbid court action etc this is likely to cause a lot of ill feeling.

Not saying you will have a problem but perhaps something to consider.

CM.

[Ed Sirett]

I think that's a little unfair on Ferroli there are plenty of others I would like to fit less (Alpha, Biasi, Halstead...)

Quite pricey for this particular bit of kit. Ideal, BW and others could be in the frame.

I think his time scale is realistic. However his prices are in the BG region. I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.

[Rob Bradley]

I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost

He said the gas supply was OK, but it could do with re-routing at least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there, then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go under the floor, I think. Why do you say it would "almost certainly" need replacing?

[Neil Jones]

It's going to be expensive to fit a condensing boiler in my house...

[Rob Bradley]

Why would the gas supply "almost certainly" need replacing? He said it was OK, it's 22mm pipe, but could do with re-routing at least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there, then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go under the floor, I think.

He said it's because they're all "bull nose" fittings to the radiator, and olive compression joints are better. I replaced several just recently with drain c*ck type valves and I don't remember seeing anything about them being unsuitable for pressurized systems?

Corgi say he can't do private work even if he is listed under his employer's registration. As far as I'm concerned that would make him qualified to do the work but it seems it would be illegal. Maybe there would be insurance implications if anything went wrong. I like the idea of him not charging, but I don't think he would!

Thanks everybody

Rob

[Andy Hall]

If you want to look it up, there's an application note on running gas pipes which deals with lengths, counts of elbows etc. and carrying capacity on the Copper Development Association web site.

If the boiler size is being increased it may be that with a long run with lots of bends that the pressure drop becomes too much.

They are fine, although if there's any corrosion or poor manufacture there may be some seepage. This could potentially be fixed with liquid PTFE. Lockshields, IME, have more of a tendency to leak around the spindle. Sometimes that can be fixed by tightening the gland nut. I had one or two that tended to seep so simply replaced the whole lot as I took radiators outside to be flushed.

I think that that is on dubious ground. Clearly some money is going to be paid to him even if the invoice loads the cost into the materials and shows the labour as "free". He is still doing the work in a professional capacity, and if he does not have an individual registration technically he is breaking the law, even though qualified to do the work. If he's employed, then it is deemed that the employer is responsible for supervision; if self employed, he has his own registration and is responsible himself. If you placed the business through his employer, then that is clear, but work on the side falls out of both categories.

In practice, nothing is any more likely to go wrong than if firm 2 did the work. However, in the event of something bad happening, it does not appear that the law would differentiate on method of payment.

The other aspect is what happens as and when you sell the house and you are asked that the installation was done by a registered installer.

You can look at the statutory instrument

3 and make up your own mind on that one.

One possible way around it is to have him do the work, and then ask a separate (full CORGI covered) fitter to do a Landlord's inspection and certificate, as though you were letting the house. Whether this flies legally is a question, and I can find no evidence that it has ever been tested in court.

.andy

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[IMM]

At this stage it is better to replace all rad valves. They are now old.

[Christian McArdle]

It won't be necessary if they have been recently replaced. I use drain c*ck types and my system is pressurised.

Christian.

[Pete C]

Typical IMM =) Quality doesn't come into it.

Wouldn't be hard to pressure test the pipes, valves, and rads etc once the old boiler is removed.

cheers, Pete.

[Ed Sirett]

With a 37kW boiler then the pipe run has to be shortish and smooth for

22mm. Also I made the (reasonable) assumption that you existing boiler may well be rated at around 15-20kW and (wrongly assumed) the pipe might only be 15mm. The "almost certainly" is based on myexperience of how often I have to upgrade the gas pipe when goiung from a conventional boiler to a combi. In this case the matter is more likely 50:50 with a 37kW boiler and "almost certainly" OK for 24kW.