Beeswax ?

I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Branded products are often just over-priced basic chemicals but it's easier to find a kettle descaler than phosphoric acid, and small amounts of anything are always expensive. Keeping some basic chemicals around the house is useful, whatever your philosophy: Strong alkali, caustic soda (although washing soda is adequate for most jobs). Strong acid, sulphamic (comes in crystals, safe to handle, but still ph1) Solvents, white spirit, meths, isopropanol. I exclude hydrochloric acid and ammonia, both of which blow your head off with the fumes before you've actually used them for anything, and don't do anything the above can't. I'm going to duck now before someone tells me brick acid is a must-have, and I must admit that I've never tried sulphamic on cement stained brickwork.

Except when they're _cheaper_. Domestic cleaners are sold in convenient quantities, at a price that's affordable (maybe excessive, but not ridiculous or it won't sell) and are in purities adequate for the task.

Industrial chemicals are often expensive (you're not usually spending your own money), sold by outfits that scorn retail, come in quantities that need a truck to deliver and may be of exceptional purity that you don't need, but do pay for. Don't rule out "Mr Muscle" kitchen cleaner, as you can't do much that's better, cheaper or more convenient, even in a lab.

Best of all though tends to be farmers' shops. Bulk, simple chemicals, reasonable purity and price, and a quantity that's a useful size. Best place you'll find for NaOH, conc. H2SO4 etc.

Are they still using toluene? It's been removed from the once-legendary Evo-Stik and it's now not nearly as effective as it used to be - I would imagine every other product that uses this solvent would be similarly affected.

Regards,

Wise words.

Modern science has brought us rivers and watercourses that are polluted with dioxins, one of the most toxic groups of chemicals ever known, and the even more insidious chemicals that mimic various hormones, and are blamed for significantly reducing male fertility.

Meanwhile, traditional chemicals have a long track record and, used in the right way, do the job just as well as they always did.

The problem is one of education. The usage of traditional chemicals was passed down from parents to children. That's just another thing that doesn't get passed down anymore.

Instead of knowledge of what chemicals do, and do not, and how they should be used, and should not, all that is getting passed down is misplaced loyalty to various brands, based on the quality (rarely) and quantity (more often) of the advertising that goes with them.

So instead of using inexpensive, safe chemicals that do the job, people buy expensive chemicals that are no more effective, often less, and bring with them a lot of unwanted hazards.

It is true that some modern branded chemicals are effective. But few of them have the long safety record of traditional chemicals. The issues of toxic dioxins and hormonal changes are not going to go away anytime soon.

What I find interesting is the comparison with the USA, where kitchens are less dependent on the modern chemicals we see here and rely more on old-fashioned products based on traditional chemicals. For example, white vinegar is a very widely used kitchen cleaner and disinfectant, either in its basic form or as the main ingredient of an old-fashioned product.

Where I do agree there has been substantial progress is in the area of industrial chemicals. But bringing these technological advances into the home is something that needs more care than is generally shown.

Nothing beats ammonia for wood bending either..

Brick acid is simply a cheap way to get a pretty strong acid.

I will put my head above the parapet to point out the nasty effects of pthalates and perchlorates on the thyroid! (So too many soya products.)

But one issue is price. Bicarb, for example, costs a fortune in the tiny containers sold for baking.

And another is that the brand loyalty drags us along with all the changes in formulation made over the years. I don't know for sure, but it feels to me that Fairly liquid had a dramatic change a few years ago. Nowadays it doesn't seem quite as good - though if things are left to soak it is OK.

I'm rare in not wanting a dishwasher - and pretty well all the modern hand washing up liquids now cause heavy smearing if you leave things to drip dry. Wasn't so a couple of years ago.

Same here. I do what Rod does, let it soak for 10-15 minutes, and make sure to rinse thoroughly.

I remember reading many years ago (Lord knows where!) that where the British rinsed washed dishes in clean water once, or not at all, the Japanese rinsed them on average five times.

I didn't start this you did. I merely asked a question to which you replied Bollox in you paragraph. I am merely stooping to your level.

I know how they work. I dont need you to point me in that direction thanks

Its an ebrasive. I use it with vinegar to cut through grease and use Bicarb to stop the smell. Salt is excellent at cutting through grease.

They are chemincals I chose to use that have no effect on my daughter. What you can clean with from tesco I can find kinder methods.

And you sound like a stuck record

I do rinse them off - always have done. But just the once!

I wouldn't mind a dishwasher - but not possible to work one in with the kitchen as it is. Even then, not sure how well it would work with our patterns of life. I would definitely like one when it comes to the spring cleaning phase - everything out of the cupboards and, as appropriate, washed.

You can't bend wood with ammonia in any concentration that's vaguely safe to handle. You're not going to achieve much with .880, you would (commercially) be looking at anhydrous and that's hard to work with.

I'd agree with your general point though - I use 26% ammonia for fuming oak to darken it (another reason why it's not a good idea for much bending) and even though ammonia is one of the few common chemicals I'm at all sensitive to, a full-face mask (Avon S10) is all I ever need to work with it.

Define "strong" though, as that's a little more subtle for acids than mere concentration. I use at least five workshop acids commonly (sulphuric, hydrochloric, sulphamic, phosphoric, acetic) and two rarely (nitric, chromic) and you have to choose according to task, not just pick the most concentrated.

If by "modern" you mean "the chemistry of 50 years ago".

Chemistry's not still as filthy as it was a few decades ago.

-------------------8><

It's almost painful watching you two - both decent folk - doing this. It's become an argument about an argument.

Last I heard, they'd closed altogether (but were still using toluene for markets that accepted it). As the product is still on the shelves, I don't know who is producing it, or what's in it.

effective as it

AIUI, Evo-stik never "removed" anything from any product, but you might find that today's 528 isn't quite the same stuff as the old Red & Black that they simply don't make any more.

It's also (assuming you're in a lab full of solvents, but the shops are shut and you have a deadline) remarkably easy to make your own. Victorian recipes for such things used everything up to and including carbon disulphide!

I appreciate that but I simply asked a question on here which I have always done. I don't need replies with Bollox. bugger and anything else he cares to throw into it. Telling me what I have done for years in cleaning is rubbish. I know what methods work for me and no amount of qualifications you can throw at it will persuade me otherwise. Sorry to the group for asking I wish I hadn't bothered now.

Perhaps true, but dioxin levels are increasing, as are the substances that mimic female hormones, leading to a massive drop in male fertility.

all of those work on limescale..you pick the one that attacks everything attached to it the least ;-)

That cant be anything but a plus, given the sort of kids people have these days.

Very wasteful, that's why I use Ecover or Bio-D and just give a quick rinse in cold water. Not too worried about minor smears - after the state of things on backpacking trips...!